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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1245

post #18661 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by covskin View Post

Didn't want to give too many tips, wouldn't want to see it coming back.

biggrin.gif I would look silly with it now-at my Age !!!
post #18662 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

 

Late 1971 (in our area)  Not too difficult to see the link with mod and skinhead here:

 

 

 

1973 however............

 

 

 

Take away the Doc Martens and it's difficult to see any connection.............

I have been thinking about these 2 pictures,I wonder if we are comparing apples with pears here ? in the 71 picture they are dressed in their smart gear in the 73 one its streetwear.

 

Suppose in 71 they would have been in streetwear,Dr Marten boots,jeans BD and a Harrington ?

 

In fact  if we call the pictures B and C and suppose that there was a picture A showing a group of skinheads in 69 / 70 wearing boots,jeans with turn ups,shirt,braces and cropped hair..then its picture B that's the odd one out ?

 

People have said on here in the past that the term "hard mod" was invented after the event to describe a different look to the "peacock mod",is that what is happening with "suedehead" its coming to be seen as only smartly dressed ? because IMO there was also a dressed down side as well.

post #18663 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post


Just to be clear, what year was this? I would be interested to know when (other) people stopped using the term 'mod'.




What were kids calling themselves up North in 1969? I had stopped going back there by mid-69. There was a link on this thread a while back to the reminiscences of a bloke from Blackpool, about the transition from 'mod' to 'Northern Soul'. He mentioned that the local 'skinheads' had stolen the fashion for wearing Levi jackets; in his experience there was a definite break between mods and skinheads. Bearing in mind that a lot of the skinheads would have been recent arrivals I can see how someone could have that impression.

I wonder how long the people who became devotees of Northern Soul still regarded themselves somehow as mods?
 

 

M-o-M - It was last Saturday! (Hence my mock indignation. Me,  a Mod? I've never been so insulted in my life, how very dare she etc.etc.  :lol:)

 

By mid 1969 in the north, kids who were skinheads were calling themselves 'skinheads' (well, they were around Manchester)

 

I'm not sure that those who became devotees of Northern Soul ever referred to themselves as 'Mods',(unless they were Mods to start off with, in which case they probably ceased being Mods around the age that all other former Mods did) but I would imagine that many would be aware of the history of their sub-culture and the part Mods played in it. (The Holy Trinity. Mod - Skinhead - Northern Soul.) A proportion of today's Northern Soul enthusiasts came to it via the mod revival in 1979/80.


Edited by roytonboy - 9/4/14 at 9:30am
post #18664 of 18776

'Meet the Crombie Boys' is from the 28 March 1971 issue of the Sunday Times Magazine. I've always thought it was a London picture (Chelsea or QPR scarf?) and guess it was taken sometime in the previous month or so. It should be a good indication of the 'look' in early '71 in London. 

The photographer Red Saunders was based in Hackney, at some stage he lost all his archives in an arson attack and is apparently reluctant to talk about the loss so is unlikely to be able or willing to provide any more detail. He later took some Wigan Casino shots for the paper that might be of interest: http://www.redsaundersphoto.eu/sunday-times.html

The blurb was written by Mavis Nicholson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavis_Nicholson) who did odd bits for the Sunday Times magazine at the time. She must have interviewed the kids briefly....I wonder if they were pretty much dragged in off nearby streets for the photo. 

I would put this picture at the end of 'Suedehead' in London (I doubt you'd see much of this look six months on).

Hair is shoulder length, shirts appear to be plain or very small check (Mavis says "shirts are thinly stripped....when the weather gets warmer....will be unbuttoned"). I cant tell if the fella on the end with the yellow shirt has his unbuttoned. Trousers are mostly fairly restrained tonics, width looks like it's increasing (?). No sta-prest bar one of the young un's who is also the only one still showing braces. All except him are sporting Crombies with silk handkerchiefs in the pocket (ruffled - not folded/pointed as you nearly always see these days), a variety of sock colours on display. Shoes are hard to see, a couple of the younger ones have brogues on, the lad standing next to the girl has some very 'boxy' Gibson's - like the 'Norwegians' but without the basket weave. 

I love this picture, it's a good composition - the attitude and poses are great. I can imagine a lot of kids at the time sticking it on their bedroom wall as something to aspire to. I like it so much I bought a copy of the magazine about 5 years ago and had it framed.

 

 

post #18665 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio1st View Post
 

'Meet the Crombie Boys' is from the 28 March 1971 issue of the Sunday Times Magazine. I've always thought it was a London picture (Chelsea or QPR scarf?) and guess it was taken sometime in the previous month or so. It should be a good indication of the 'look' in early '71 in London. 

The photographer Red Saunders was based in Hackney, at some stage he lost all his archives in an arson attack and is apparently reluctant to talk about the loss so is unlikely to be able or willing to provide any more detail. He later took some Wigan Casino shots for the paper that might be of interest: http://www.redsaundersphoto.eu/sunday-times.html

The blurb was written by Mavis Nicholson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mavis_Nicholson) who did odd bits for the Sunday Times magazine at the time. She must have interviewed the kids briefly....I wonder if they were pretty much dragged in off nearby streets for the photo. 

I would put this picture at the end of 'Suedehead' in London (I doubt you'd see much of this look six months on).

Hair is shoulder length, shirts appear to be plain or very small check (Mavis says "shirts are thinly stripped....when the weather gets warmer....will be unbuttoned"). I cant tell if the fella on the end with the yellow shirt has his unbuttoned. Trousers are mostly fairly restrained tonics, width looks like it's increasing (?). No sta-prest bar one of the young un's who is also the only one still showing braces. All except him are sporting Crombies with silk handkerchiefs in the pocket (ruffled - not folded/pointed as you nearly always see these days), a variety of sock colours on display. Shoes are hard to see, a couple of the younger ones have brogues on, the lad standing next to the girl has some very 'boxy' Gibson's - like the 'Norwegians' but without the basket weave. 

I love this picture, it's a good composition - the attitude and poses are great. I can imagine a lot of kids at the time sticking it on their bedroom wall as something to aspire to. I like it so much I bought a copy of the magazine about 5 years ago and had it framed.

 

 

It was the number 1 picture on every kids wall i knew ... how we aspired to wear clobber that cool . 

post #18666 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio1st View Post


All except him are sporting Crombies with silk handkerchiefs in the pocket (ruffled - not folded/pointed as you nearly always see these days), a variety of sock colours on display.

Important note Studio......I remember when we first got our Crombies,that was how we wore the pocket square (and in our suits) It was later that the pre folded,carded ones were sold with the coats.Fucking horrible IMO.it cheapened thel look.Never wore a Tie Tack either as the real silk squares were relatively expensive and would get screwed up as birds were always pulling them out !
post #18667 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsvs5 View Post


Important note Studio......I remember when we first got our Crombies,that was how we wore the pocket square (and in our suits) It was later that the pre folded,carded ones were sold with the coats.Fucking horrible IMO.it cheapened thel look.Never wore a Tie Tack either as the real silk squares were relatively expensive and would get screwed up as birds were always pulling them out !

I don't remember the card ones being sold with the "crombies",I do remember lads pulling the red lining out of the top pocket so that it was supposed to look like a pocket handkerchief.

 

I also remember seeing lads wearing crombies at winter time night matches as late as 75,I suppose on a dry cold night they were the ideal thing for warmth, or a sheepskin.

 

I didn't have a Crombie in 71,there was no point in having an expensive winter coat as I was growing so fast it wouldn't have fitted for long.

 

BTW you mentioned birds with 29" waists,I am sure the girls had smaller waists than that back then, in 71 I think my 2 tone sta prest were 30 waist and 28", and 30" waist sta prest always sold out first in Austins ( the "in" shop for us at the time).

post #18668 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerneabbas View Post
 

I have been thinking about these 2 pictures,I wonder if we are comparing apples with pears here ? in the 71 picture they are dressed in their smart gear in the 73 one its streetwear.

 

Suppose in 71 they would have been in streetwear,Dr Marten boots,jeans BD and a Harrington ?

 

In fact  if we call the pictures B and C and suppose that there was a picture A showing a group of skinheads in 69 / 70 wearing boots,jeans with turn ups,shirt,braces and cropped hair..then its picture B that's the odd one out ?

 

People have said on here in the past that the term "hard mod" was invented after the event to describe a different look to the "peacock mod",is that what is happening with "suedehead" its coming to be seen as only smartly dressed ? because IMO there was also a dressed down side as well.

cernebbas - that's a fair observation and on this view I'm going to both agree and disagree with you! 

 

Firstly, As I stated in a previous post, there is a noticeable link through skinhead-suedehead-bootboy. If we arrange the following photographs in the following order. These are pretty much what I would describe as 'football terrace wear'.

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, lads did wear these clothes to the match and on the street)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This pretty much shows the progression.

 

Where I would disagree, however is that Mod-Skinhead-Suedehead was more than just wearing the clothes - it was a culture. Most of us who lived through it (and virtually all who have come to it in later times) have that culture As a consequence, if I meet a someone 4 or 5 years older than me who had been a mod, the chances are I have some things in common with that person, we can talk clothes, music, experiences and even scooters  (though I never had one). Similarly, if I meet someone who was a Suedehead but who may be 12-18 months younger than me the same would apply. As an example - a short story. Some months ago I was delivering a course in a local organisation. There was a woman on the course who clearly did not want to be there - her whole demeanor shouted negativity. Someone like that can really upset the dynamics of a group, particularly as I am an 'outsider' . I noticed, however, that she was wearing a scooter t-shirt, so I engaged her on the subject, told her that I used to be a skinhead and in no time at all we we talking clothes, boots, music etc. She was as good as gold afterwards and at the end of the day her evaluation said, "Really enjoyable day, great tutor!" It was nothing to do with the course!

 

 

Forgive me for making some assumptions here, but I would guess that the lads in the last photo would be only 2-3 years younger than me but I doubt if I could relate to them at all. If they did get 'dressed up' to go out at night, their clothes would have been little different to what other teenagers were wearing at the time. Did they have 'their own' kind of music, as we did or are they just into the chart sounds of the day? As a Mod, Skinhead or Suedehead, you stood apart from the mainstream, I don't think these lads did, therefore the mod/skinhead/suedehead link is broken. I can recall some younger kids during my last year at school having some aspects of this appearance (the hair, the jumpers and the spread collars) Some of them were rock fans, some pop fans, some soul fans, some into chart music of the day - they didn't have a separate identity like we had. I appreciate I'm making some assumptions here.

post #18669 of 18776
I had just typed a very long and detailed reply that I just accidentally deleted:brick:baldy[1].gifsatisfied.gifbaldy[1].gif......

29" waist? I was having a laugh cerneabas........

I believe that 95% of Crombies were OTP and eventually down the market,just as everything else.Time to move on.....
IMO I saw the "Boot Boy" thing as very provincial (N/NE) ,not universally accepted,and a sartorial disaster that thew everything into the garbage that had been developed during the previous few years.I read it as a reluctance /inability to let go and move on.it certainly killed it.
post #18670 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post


Where I would disagree, however is that Mod-Skinhead-Suedehead was more than just wearing the clothes - it was a culture. Most of us who lived through it (and virtually all who have come to it in later times) have that culture As a consequence, if I meet a someone 4 or 5 years older than me who had been a mod, the chances are I have some things in common with that person, we can talk clothes, music, experiences and even scooters  (though I never had one). Similarly, if I meet someone who was a Suedehead but who may be 12-18 months younger than me the same would apply...


Forgive me for making some assumptions here, but I would guess that the lads in the last photo would be only 2-3 years younger than me but I doubt if I could relate to them at all. If they did get 'dressed up' to go out at night, their clothes would have been little different to what other teenagers were wearing at the time. Did they have 'their own' kind of music, as we did or are they just into the chart sounds of the day? As a Mod, Skinhead or Suedehead, you stood apart from the mainstream, I don't think these lads did, therefore the mod/skinhead/suedehead link is broken. I can recall some younger kids during my last year at school having some aspects of this appearance (the hair, the jumpers and the spread collars) Some of them were rock fans, some pop fans, some soul fans, some into chart music of the day - they didn't have a separate identity like we had. I appreciate I'm making some assumptions here.

Whilst being largely true - I was nodding my head a lot - I have to admit that's probably an over-generalisation. I noticed subtle and not-so-subtle differences over the handful of years concerned. When I moved to London in '68, one thing I did was spend a lot of time getting my hands on rocksteady 45s at my favourite West Indian record shop. I wasn't the only white lad doing this, but I was in a minority. It was part of the left-over mod enthusiasm for tracking down good music, very similar to what drove the Northern Soulies later. By late 1969, although I never felt I had changed much in the style of clothes I wore, the incoming bunch of kids where I was who dressed like I did, only seemed to be interested in the popular reggae and Motown dancehall hits. I think something is lost with every new set of kids that join something. In that respect I understand that when I was 16/17 and stopped being a 'wannabe mod' and actually started being one, anyone from the previous waves of modernist/mod culture would have seen my attitude and style as being somehow deficient. It would actually be interesting to talk to someone who came in at any of these times - late mod, skinhead, suedehead, bee-jumper-and-penny-collar - and find out what really influenced them. Is anything added when something is lost, or does it degenerate and fade into nothing, as you seem to suggest in your final sentence?
post #18671 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post


Whilst being largely true - I was nodding my head a lot - I have to admit that's probably an over-generalisation. I noticed subtle and not-so-subtle differences over the handful of years concerned. When I moved to London in '68, one thing I did was spend a lot of time getting my hands on rocksteady 45s at my favourite West Indian record shop. I wasn't the only white lad doing this, but I was in a minority. It was part of the left-over mod enthusiasm for tracking down good music, very similar to what drove the Northern Soulies later. By late 1969, although I never felt I had changed much in the style of clothes I wore, the incoming bunch of kids where I was who dressed like I did, only seemed to be interested in the popular reggae and Motown dancehall hits. I think something is lost with every new set of kids that join something. In that respect I understand that when I was 16/17 and stopped being a 'wannabe mod' and actually started being one, anyone from the previous waves of modernist/mod culture would have seen my attitude and style as being somehow deficient. It would actually be interesting to talk to someone who came in at any of these times - late mod, skinhead, suedehead, bee-jumper-and-penny-collar - and find out what really influenced them. Is anything added when something is lost, or does it degenerate and fade into nothing, as you seem to suggest in your final sentence?

I was trying to make a post replying to roytonboy,when you posted this,the phrase you use "over-generalisation" was what I was looking for.

 

roytonboy says that he made some assumptions in his post,I had made assumptions about the "Boot Power" picture too but rather different to his,I was assuming that as the lads were wearing crombies that they had been "suedeheads" the year before,now I could be wrong but if it was the case it shows the gradual change in fashions as still part of the mod / skinhead /suedehead progression.

 

I have to say that I find the music thing a bit of a red herring,I know that skinheads liked reggae and soul whilst they were skinheads,but a lot of them seemed to move on to other music later ? and surely there were other skinheads / suedeheads who weren't into music at all ?

I think that people on this thread are generally still into music from that era ? and no doubt lots of former Mods and Skinheads still listen to it,but I bet than even more would hear some music from that time on the radio and think "oh I haven't heard this for years we used to listen to this all the time" and then turn it off.

post #18672 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsvs5 View Post



I believe that 95% of Crombies were OTP and eventually down the market,just as everything else.Time to move on.....
IMO I saw the "Boot Boy" thing as very provincial (N/NE) ,not universally accepted,and a sartorial disaster that thew everything into the garbage that had been developed during the previous few years.I read it as a reluctance /inability to let go and move on.it certainly killed it.

Totally agree about the Crombies,I suppose they started off with proper Crombies,then the rag trade would see a demand for cheaper versions and then very cheap versions.

 

As flyfronted said,those were the clothes that we aspired to ( in the Crombie boy pictures),as we have seen in many pictures in this thread the reality fell well short in many cases.

post #18673 of 18776
I have to say that I find the music thing a bit of a red herring,I know that skinheads liked reggae and soul whilst they were skinheads,but a lot of them seemed to move on to other music later ? and surely there were other skinheads / suedeheads who weren't into music at all ?
I think that people on this thread are generally still into music from that era ? and no doubt lots of former Mods and Skinheads still listen to it,but I bet than even more would hear some music from that time on the radio and think "oh I haven't heard this for years we used to listen to this all the time" and then turn it off.
[/quote]


I can vouch for some of the Skinheads not buying/or listening to Music-unless they went to the Dancehalls etc.Nearly all my Mates were like that.They used to think that I was mad to buy the Tunes.Mind you they used to come and listen to them(and bring their Girlfriends)when I used to play them in the Loft.smile.gif
post #18674 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerneabbas View Post
 

I was trying to make a post replying to roytonboy,when you posted this,the phrase you use "over-generalisation" was what I was looking for.

 

roytonboy says that he made some assumptions in his post,I had made assumptions about the "Boot Power" picture too but rather different to his,I was assuming that as the lads were wearing crombies that they had been "suedeheads" the year before,now I could be wrong but if it was the case it shows the gradual change in fashions as still part of the mod / skinhead /suedehead progression.

 

I have to say that I find the music thing a bit of a red herring,I know that skinheads liked reggae and soul whilst they were skinheads,but a lot of them seemed to move on to other music later ? and surely there were other skinheads / suedeheads who weren't into music at all ?

I think that people on this thread are generally still into music from that era ? and no doubt lots of former Mods and Skinheads still listen to it,but I bet than even more would hear some music from that time on the radio and think "oh I haven't heard this for years we used to listen to this all the time" and then turn it off.

 

Personally speaking, at the time, I only ever bought soul, motown and reggae records and was pretty disparaging about all other types of music - most of my 'skinhead' friends were. If you went to the local youth clubs, there were all types of kids there and different types of music was played. As we got a bit older we also liked to go to the local Soul clubs (or soul nights) because that's where we would find others like us. As the years have gone by my musical tastes have widened greatly, my social life changed. What I was focusing on was the Mod/Skinhead/ Suedehead era and that people still carry their memories, including musical memories, from that time and this is a common link between us.

 

If I can go back to the mate I spoke about in a recent post (the boot boy). If pushed, (and I only found this out from someone who knew him at the time) he will admit to being into the Bay City Rollers at the time and other chart stuff of the period. He doesn't talk about that period much at all - any reminiscing he does tends to be about his early twenties. Another of my other mates of about the same age appears to have never had a teenage life at all and if asked what music he likes will shrug and say, "Oh, I don't mind a bit of Bruce Springsteen." Compare that to those of us on this site - we must have an emotional attachment to that period in our lives or else we wouldn't be on here - for many of us that includes the music. Whether you agree with the term or not, we have a shared culture, things in common. In contrast , are there any web-sites for former 'Boot-Boys' ? Has anyone ever seen a bloke in his 50's walking around dressed like the lads on the 'Boot Power' album? I certainly haven't and the reason is (yes, I'm assuming again!) that it was just the fashion at the time, pretty mainstream and transient. 

 

It could be argued that 'Mod' was just the fashion at the time and, indeed, transient, but take that to it's logical conclusion and it could be stated that ALL fashionably dressed young people in their mid to late teens from the early sixties to today have been 'Mods', after all they wore the most MODern fashions and listened to MODern music but I'm sure that none of us would agree with that definition. What set Mods and their later developments, Skinhead and Suedehead apart is that that we WEREN'T trying to be mainstream and that's why many of us look back with a sense of pride to that part of our lives. I do agree that there are some threads right up to Boot Boy, as demonstrated in the series of 'development' photos in my last post but where do you draw the line? After all, even Punks wore Doc Martens.

post #18675 of 18776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-of-Mystery View Post


Whilst being largely true - I was nodding my head a lot - I have to admit that's probably an over-generalisation. I noticed subtle and not-so-subtle differences over the handful of years concerned. When I moved to London in '68, one thing I did was spend a lot of time getting my hands on rocksteady 45s at my favourite West Indian record shop. I wasn't the only white lad doing this, but I was in a minority. It was part of the left-over mod enthusiasm for tracking down good music, very similar to what drove the Northern Soulies later. By late 1969, although I never felt I had changed much in the style of clothes I wore, the incoming bunch of kids where I was who dressed like I did, only seemed to be interested in the popular reggae and Motown dancehall hits. I think something is lost with every new set of kids that join something. In that respect I understand that when I was 16/17 and stopped being a 'wannabe mod' and actually started being one, anyone from the previous waves of modernist/mod culture would have seen my attitude and style as being somehow deficient. It would actually be interesting to talk to someone who came in at any of these times - late mod, skinhead, suedehead, bee-jumper-and-penny-collar - and find out what really influenced them. Is anything added when something is lost, or does it degenerate and fade into nothing, as you seem to suggest in your final sentence?

 

M-o-M.  Don't you think that that this is true about many things in life? Talk to anyone who has been in the forces and they will tell you that's it's not as tough as it was in their day. Martial artists will tell you, "anyone can get a black belt these days - not like it used to be." I recall training to be a P.E. teacher and being told by a P.E. student in the year above about how "disappointed" they had been when they had seen our group. Funny thing was, the lecturers told us that we had been one of the best groups they had ever had! I think it is part of the human condition (and certainly British culture) to consider that standards are always slipping. Did the look of the mid 70s degenerate and fade into nothing? Well, something sparked off Punk and the Mod and Skinhead revivals!

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