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Mod to Suedehead - Page 1243

post #18631 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knightley View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

 

I think that this comment (and those of Browniecj) are very accurate. As a 14 year old I aspired to be a skinhead, I knew the term and looked up to those older lads with that style. Later,  I just evolved into what others recognised as a suedehead and don't think I ever said, "I am a suedehead",  though I have no doubt that others, aspiring to that look would. (It was never necessary to say, "I am a skinhead", it was self evident). The term suedehead was never that widely used, in any case. It was quite common for a gang to be known as 'Crossley Skins' , or wherever they were from, but I never heard of a gang called "Anytown Suedeheads". The term was in use for a period of less than twelve months, the Suedehead 'style' (at least as I recognise it) was seen for about half that. 

 

In terms of labels, this forum has demonstrated in the last week or so that they can have slightly different meanings, even to us. I think a lot of us have a pretty fixed Idea of what we mean by 'Mod', but if we consider 'Mod' to have existed from 1963 until 1967 and recognise that it was a constantly and rapidly changing look then our view would be a very narrow one and one not necessarily shared by those who actually were mods in, say 1964. I see some photos and video clips (the early Who  performance in a pub, for instance,) in which quite a number feature don't fit my idea of Mod at all - some have quiffs!) My sister is 7 years older than me and therefore was 16 in 1964. I asked her recently if she had been a mod and she enthusiastically said "Oh yes, how I wanted..." she then started to list several items of clothing, including knee boots and other stuff that she'd had to save up and buy. Not the sort of clothes I was expecting at all. I recall her in ski pants and a suede jacket and that's how I remember her as a mod. When I told her this, she said, "Fancy you remembering that, I had forgotten I wore those." I have read on a couple of occasions that the original mods never referred to themselves as mods and most distanced themselves or 'moved on' when the term became widely used following the sea side disturbances in early 1964.

 



Good stuff roytonboy! Since this thread was renamed I have often wondered why we haven't spent more time discussing the mod part of the equation.

You may recall my mentioning Gill and Del Evans, original Birmingham Mods and, for ease of reference I am again putting up a link to their great piece on Jack That Cat Was Claen:

http://jackthatcatwasclean.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/memories-photos-of-birmingham-mods-del.html

You will see that even in Birmingham (no disrespect to those of you north of Potters Bar!) the journey started in about 1960.

Just above that piece is a familiar one about Marc Bolan (Feld) and chums even earlier in time...

 

 I think that many of us regard Mod - Skinhead - Suedehead as a continuous journey with many common features. (although it is stretching the imagination to find many similarities between the photos of Gill and Del and how I looked at certain points along that journey!). More than anything it is an attitude, or state of mind, if you prefer. I think most of us on this site still have that to a greater or lesser degree. This is why I regard the summer of 1972 as the cut off point. Once the influences of Slade, Gary Glitter et al started to be seen, that smart, neat look disappeared and 'style' took a back seat. During my student days (1973-1976) I still dressed fashionably and was associated with the 'in crowd', such as it was, however I don't look back with any affection to that look or those clothes - they were appropriate at the time, but not really 'style-ish', whereas I still regularly wear BD shirts, brogues, v-neck pullovers etc nowadays.

 

On Friday night we went to the Twisted Wheel in Manchester and stayed over. On Saturday morning we were chatting with the waitress over breakfast and she was saying that the 'Wheel' has changed over the past 12 months. I commented on how I was one of very few who had worn a suit. She agreed and told us about a club in Stoke - "That would suit you" she said,nodding at me, "Lots of Mods go there."  When she went I turned to my girlfriend and asked in mock incredulity,  "Did she just accuse me of being a mod?!?"


Edited by roytonboy - 9/1/14 at 9:03am
post #18632 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knightley View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post

 

I think that this comment (and those of Browniecj) are very accurate. As a 14 year old I aspired to be a skinhead, I knew the term and looked up to those older lads with that style. Later,  I just evolved into what others recognised as a suedehead and don't think I ever said, "I am a suedehead",  though I have no doubt that others, aspiring to that look would. (It was never necessary to say, "I am a skinhead", it was self evident). The term suedehead was never that widely used, in any case. It was quite common for a gang to be known as 'Crossley Skins' , or wherever they were from, but I never heard of a gang called "Anytown Suedeheads". The term was in use for a period of less than twelve months, the Suedehead 'style' (at least as I recognise it) was seen for about half that. 

 

In terms of labels, this forum has demonstrated in the last week or so that they can have slightly different meanings, even to us. I think a lot of us have a pretty fixed Idea of what we mean by 'Mod', but if we consider 'Mod' to have existed from 1963 until 1967 and recognise that it was a constantly and rapidly changing look then our view would be a very narrow one and one not necessarily shared by those who actually were mods in, say 1964. I see some photos and video clips (the early Who  performance in a pub, for instance,) in which quite a number feature don't fit my idea of Mod at all - some have quiffs!) My sister is 7 years older than me and therefore was 16 in 1964. I asked her recently if she had been a mod and she enthusiastically said "Oh yes, how I wanted..." she then started to list several items of clothing, including knee boots and other stuff that she'd had to save up and buy. Not the sort of clothes I was expecting at all. I recall her in ski pants and a suede jacket and that's how I remember her as a mod. When I told her this, she said, "Fancy you remembering that, I had forgotten I wore those." I have read on a couple of occasions that the original mods never referred to themselves as mods and most distanced themselves or 'moved on' when the term became widely used following the sea side disturbances in early 1964.

 



:

http://jackthatcatwasclean.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/memories-photos-of-birmingham-mods-del.html


I know when I saw the above Photo of Mods sitting astride Motorbikes(a few years ago now),I was relieved to see it.To the Press etc.,Mods/Skinheads were always pictured ridiing Scooters and it was said that was their only mode of transport.I had a Triumph Motorbike(the only one in our crowd) and I believed I was the only one-until "Bronco Bullfrog" came out.

What I am trying to say is,there were a lot of differences within the framework of Mod.Roytonboy speaks of his Sister and the Clothes She wore.If you look at a lot of the early Photos(and watch RSG),you will see a whole range of clothing being worn-that is not readily classed as Mod.In fact,in the very early years,Girls who followed the Modernists wore Stilettoes and pointed toed shoes.It was not until `63/`64 there was a real movement towards different looking Shoes etc.
post #18633 of 19152
post #18634 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knightley View Post

Saw these lovely longwings elsewhere on SF:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/375309/noodles-good-natured-advice-thread/11235#post_7348222


Like Sherman tanks! Very nice. I have a black smooth leather pair that they made for Brooks Brothers a while back. Real snazzy. Are the ones in the link cordovan?
post #18635 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botolph View Post

Like Sherman tanks! Very nice. I have a black smooth leather pair that they made for Brooks Brothers a while back. Real snazzy. Are the ones in the link cordovan?

Yep
post #18636 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

 

 I think that many of us regard Mod - Skinhead - Suedehead as a continuous journey with many common features. (although it is stretching the imagination to find many similarities between the photos of Gill and Del and how I looked at certain points along that journey!). More than anything it is an attitude, or state of mind, if you prefer. I think most of us on this site still have that to a greater or lesser degree. This is why I regard the summer of 1972 as the cut off point. Once the influences of Slade, Gary Glitter et al started to be seen, that smart, neat look disappeared and 'style' took a back seat. During my student days (1973-1976) I still dressed fashionably and was associated with the 'in crowd', such as it was, however I don't look back with any affection to that look or those clothes - they were appropriate at the time, but not really 'style-ish', whereas I still regularly wear BD shirts, brogues, v-neck pullovers etc nowadays.

 

On Friday night we went to the Twisted Wheel in Manchester and stayed over. On Saturday morning we were chatting with the waitress over breakfast and she was saying that the 'Wheel' has changed over the past 12 months. I commented on how I was one of very few who had worn a suit. She agreed and told us about a club in Stoke - "That would suit you" she said,nodding at me, "Lots of Mods go there."  When she went I turned to my girlfriend and asked in mock incredulity,  "Did she just accuse me of being a mod?!?"


Edited by con man - 9/3/14 at 2:49pm
post #18637 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by con man View Post
 

 

roytonboy, this could be the club that she was on about, Pow Wow, its a good night, think the next one is in October, you can just catch a glimpse of your humble narrator, attempting to strut my stuff

 

Thanks con man - yes, that's the one. Looks good!

post #18638 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post
 

WHAT'S IN A NAME?

 

I have recently had a couple of discussions where people said that they had been 'Suedeheads'. The comments were both made by the individuals to underline their identity as something separate and, by inference, different from 'skinhead'. As someone who was both a skinhead and suedehead, this was not a point of view I have encountered before. (with the exception of the experience recounted below)

 

The term 'suedehead' is a bit of an odd one, not being widely known to the public at large - if you say "I used to be a skinhead", people have an idea of what you mean (it's likely to be inaccurate but an idea none-the-less), if you say the word "Mod", again people have some concept but the word "suedehead" usually draws a blank. Those who do know, however, usually have a very good idea of what you are talking about.

 

Just as we have discussed on this forum about the distinctions between mod and skinhead being blurred, I feel the same about skinhead and suedehead. For instance, at what point did I stop being a skinhead and start being a suedehead? I don't think that I ever made that decision. In late 1971 I was stood with two mates on the North Stand at Maine Road, we were all wearing crombies. I heard a voice behind us say, "Here's some of those suedeheads that hate us skinheads" and in an instant Charlie was pushed in the back and his hat snatched off his head. We turned to see four older lads giving us some threatening verbals. The funny thing was, though one of them was a bonehead, my hair was shorter than all of the others, yet they saw themselves as skinheads and us as suedeheads. I couldn't swear to it but I was probably still wearing Levi's and Doc Marten's so, other than the crombie, I was more 'skinhead' than most of them. I'm not sure how but we managed to engage them in conversation, Charlie got his hat back and the event passed off without violence but I found it a strange and rather unpleasant incident. (I blame this episode on the book "Suedehead" by Richard Allen which was out at the time - the front cover being the only thing anywhere near accurate about it from our point of view) As an aside, I still occasionally see that bonehead at City matches these days and he is still a very, very rough looking bloke.

 

I would be interested to hear other peoples' views on the subject - unless I'm mistaken, some of our number will have regarded themselves as suedeheads (elwood and cerneabbas spring to mind). Did anyone else make the transition from skinhead to suedehead? If so, did you regard one as a development of the other or the two as quite separate? As ever, I'm sure there will be differences in location and time and even in interpretation of the name.

roytonboy.I find this post very interesting , also another post with the list of clothes/shoes worn by skinheads.suedeheads and later.

 

The reason I haven't replied until now is that I am finding it difficult to recall how I felt and what I knew then as a 13 year old and separate that from what I have learnt subsequently,my memory is quite selective and although I can remember some events very clearly ( I think ! ) I just cant remember certain things at all.

 

I definitely heard the name Suedehead being mentioned in connection with the grown out skinhead haircut,as I hadn't been a skinhead I doubt that I would have considered myself a suedehead although I was trying my best to wear the clothes and shoes that suedeheads wore.

 

I agree with what has been said about being able to wear a lot of the clothes to school,we must have been the most stylish schoolboys ever IMO,I also agree with your list showing the changes in clothes and shoe fashions,although there was a lot of overlap I think,and I also agree about the regional timescale and variation that has been discussed before.

 

What you call Smoothies ie lads wearing the suedehead clothes but with longer hair I think we would have called Boot boys,in fact I thought of that term up until 77 ? when you still saw lads with that long hair "style" and baggy jeans and Dr Martens ( checkout the Millwall Panorama episode),gradually swept away by the changes in fashion inspired by punk ? although some die hards adhered to it up until 78 ? or perhaps later.

 

I don't know whether you have read Bovver (later updated as Booted and Suited) by Chris Brown ? ( he sometimes posts on here),as regards to the clothes styles down here what he says definitely seems how I remember it,he also goes into the music that lots of people listened to through the 70s in depth,definitely worth reading IMO.

post #18639 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwood View Post


Indeed, roytonboy. Local variations could be very local - and I think your ripples in a pond analogy is a good one. North Stand 71/72 - yep. IIRC it was a standing terrace just for that season. I seem to remember that at first home game of the season, the Kippax was the usual place to be and the North Stand was pretty empty but before kick-off there was a spontaneous mass rush from the Kippax, swarming into the new stand. And that was the place to be for the rest of the season. They put seating in the summer of 72 so then it was back to the Kippax. (Apologies to rest of forum for off-topic digression.)

 

elwood - your memory is spot on. I was part of that spontaneous move across on the first home match. We had a very good campaign and when we won the last home game of the season (2-0 v. Derby) we thought we were going to win the league. Unfortunately, the teams just below us won their games in hand - Derby won the league and we finished fourth on goal difference! I got to ten away matches that season, so a memorable year for lots of reasons!

post #18640 of 19152
Interesting in reading about Mods who became Hippies but then changed back again(Mods - The New Religion).They soon got fed up with the Rock Music and started buying Jamaican Music etc., again.It was the same story when some of the ex Skinheads grew their hair(through the various stages),started liking Glam and other Rock-and then reverted back.I was one of those,though Reggae had moved onto Roots,which I never liked.I was again listening to Soul/Funk etc. smile.gif
post #18641 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by roytonboy View Post

Thanks con man - yes, that's the one. Looks good!


The original "Pow Wow" in Sheffield was,to me,in a better Club(with a great atmospheret).It was small,seedy and it attracted some of the smartest best new Mods around.

Roytonboy,I can recommend the AdLib in Lincoln City.It has everything-a small lCellar Club(2 Rooms),,well dressed People and the music is top notch.It happens 4 times a year(next being October 11th).If you don`t believe me ask Mr.Knightley.Himself and his lovely Wife travelled down from Essex,to go there(as we do- this year it will be 4 times) smile.gif.
post #18642 of 19152
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerneabbas View Post
 

roytonboy.I find this post very interesting , also another post with the list of clothes/shoes worn by skinheads.suedeheads and later.

 

The reason I haven't replied until now is that I am finding it difficult to recall how I felt and what I knew then as a 13 year old and separate that from what I have learnt subsequently,my memory is quite selective and although I can remember some events very clearly ( I think ! ) I just cant remember certain things at all.

 

I definitely heard the name Suedehead being mentioned in connection with the grown out skinhead haircut,as I hadn't been a skinhead I doubt that I would have considered myself a suedehead although I was trying my best to wear the clothes and shoes that suedeheads wore

 

I agree with what has been said about being able to wear a lot of the clothes to school,we must have been the most stylish schoolboys ever IMO,I also agree with your list showing the changes in clothes and shoe fashions,although there was a lot of overlap I think,and I also agree about the regional timescale and variation that has been discussed before.

 

What you call Smoothies ie lads wearing the suedehead clothes but with longer hair I think we would have called Boot boys,in fact I thought of that term up until 77 ? when you still saw lads with that long hair "style" and baggy jeans and Dr Martens ( checkout the Millwall Panorama episode),gradually swept away by the changes in fashion inspired by punk ? although some die hards adhered to it up until 78 ? or perhaps later.

 

I don't know whether you have read Bovver (later updated as Booted and Suited) by Chris Brown ? ( he sometimes posts on here),as regards to the clothes styles down here what he says definitely seems how I remember it,he also goes into the music that lots of people listened to through the 70s in depth,definitely worth reading IMO.

 

cerneabbas - no problem with the late reply. I pride myself on having a very clear memory of those times but no doubt don't get it right all of the time. The term 'Boot Boy' is another interesting one. The term was certainly being used as early as 1969, usually in reference to skinheads or 'skinhead types' . It simply referred to someone who wore boots. We tended to call someone who had the hair cut a skinhead, someone whose hair was longer but wore the clothes (or most of them) as a Boot Boy. Thus I had some mates who weren't skinheads, but who were Boot Boys. By definition, skinheads were boot boys, but not all boot boys were skinheads! Sprayed on walls around Royton in late 1969 - HCHBB (High Crompton and Heyside Boot Boys). A chant at City at the time as some of the lads piled into the away supporters was, "Manchester BOOT BOYS". The term was not so widely used during 1971 by us as the wearing of shoes became more popular, but the term started to be heard again by about 1972, emanating from London, I think, shortly followed by a (yet another) book by Richard Allen. The front cover of the book was not what I would describe as 'Boot Boy' but that's because fashion had moved on and younger lads wanted their own look and this image was adopted and developed by them over the next couple of years. By football season 1972 -73 the term Boot Boy was back in use (Skinhead had gone, the term suedehead no longer used) and encompassed a range of looks, from ex-skinheads and suedeheads such as myself ( I would have been wearing a Denim Levi jacket, wide two-tone parallels and black 10 hole Doc Martens by this stage, I had even gown my hair!) - other former skinheads and suedeheads similarly attired in a mixture of previously worn terrace wear, down to 14-15 year olds looking a lot like the Bay City Rollers were about to 12 months later. As you say, hair generally was being worn longer during this period. We all wore boots to the match, so collectively would all have been referred to as boot boys. I have a mate who is 5 years younger than me. We were chatting about our youth recently and he recalled going down to the other end of town one night to fight the lads from Bromfield estate. "I can remember throwing bricks at them outside The Derwin (a pub) The funny thing was, these were lads you saw every day in school - I can't even remember what it was about!" he laughed.  "I was wearing white skinners, Doc Martens and a tartan jacket" I said, "You mean Boot Boy style?" and he replied "Yes, that's right". This would have been 1974 or 1975.

 

As ever, though, the 'fault lines' become blurred. Are these lads Suedeheads or Boot Boys?

 

 

My guess is they would have called themselves 'Suedeheads' but others might disagree with that description.

 

What about this one?

 

Again showing that 'cross-over' where elements of skinhead/suedehead/boot boy are all in evidence. Incidentally, both photos call into question the statement that 'Suedehead' was a more sophisticated look. Rather, it underlines that the way the clothes are worn is as important as the clothes themselves, as a number of you have stated previously.

 

I will have to get myself a copy of Chris Brown's book.

post #18643 of 19152

roytonboy. I have recently started going to football again after the disaster which has befallen my wretched local club and my daft promise to support them until they get back into the league, fool that I am. Anyway this has caused me to dig out the large box of 70s programmes that I had put away and I have started to sort them out and to buy the ones I need to complete the collection ( only from games that I attended ). Reading these programmes is a walk down memory lane and not just the football,even my GF has been looking through some ( after offering to take them to the tip mind you) and taking an interest in the adverts,prices and details for travel on coaches and special trains.

In some are pictures of our fans mostly wearing baggy jeans and Doc Martens and with long hair ( boot boy style),I think that I agree with Eds seamless transition description,a gradual change from skinhead through sudehead and then smoothie/boot boy perhaps.

post #18644 of 19152
Skinhead/suedehead/bootboy, the clothes evolved but I think it is all in the hair. Bootboy hair is an unequivocal clean break, not grown out and trimmed a bit like suedehead but short (sometimes very short) on top but very long at the back and sides. Think Michael Bolton from the 80s!
post #18645 of 19152

Just a word to say the discussion started by Roytonboy is very interesting, gave a boost to the thread, as did the numerous replies by the members.

I'm not sure we had all those suedeheads pictures. Sorry if we had, but they are anyway a good illustration of the recent talk...


Edited by Clouseau - 9/3/14 at 7:08am
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