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Department of Gender Blur - Page 2

post #16 of 26
Well, not that I would ever don a women's blazer and eye shadow, but I do feel like gender-blurring has almost become an established tradtion for young people trying to...I don't know - are they having fun? When I see it, I feel amused. Partially because here before me is a man trying to not only look like a woman, but also seeming a bit emasculated. I also find it funny because, as you indicate, it really isn't a particularly groundbreaking style, but these people often do have a standoffishness, which could be interpreted as elitism. But perhaps they are just proud of being the current torchbearers of a venerable tradition. Men have been trying to look like women since long before they put on suits. Men have always made scenes by crossdressing. Most famously the Roman Emperors: Caligula, Nero, Elagabalus, and others. From Greek vases and other pictorial representations, we can observe countless men dressing or doing their faces like women. Not to mention the number of gods who would take male and female form at will, were always both, or dressed as women. Bhoddisatvas, Shiva, Aztec gods, even Hercules was accused of it. In our own time, we have Beaument or something who was at Louis XV's court, J. Edgar Hoover, etc. But still, when David Bowie, Alice Cooper and the rest put on a dress it is as if they are tearing society to shreds. Then in very recent times Marilyn Manson and Beckham do it again, and there is an uproar. And of course the Thesbians always have been men, from Greece to China, and had to dress like woman. Having equated all of these apples and oranges, what then are my personal thoughts on the subject? I think it should be accepted as a silly but inevitable part of the history of fashion and manhood. The hipsters in Williamsburg may not be so creative, but when I see them in other places, I always rejoice. There were several such types at my university, and I was always happy to see them. On a cold snowy winter morning, a drag queen type in a tight velvet suit, cowboy boots, a bright ascot, and made-up to the nines, never failed to bring a smile to my face. But this is a little different from the hipsters, I suppose. Yes, if you're going to do it, be a grand dame, not just a Dior wannabe.
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Well, not that I would ever don a women's blazer and eye shadow, but I do feel like gender-blurring has almost become an established tradtion for young people trying to...I don't know - are they having fun?  When I see it, I feel amused.  Partially because here before me is a man trying to not only look like a woman, but also seeming a bit emasculated.  I also find it funny because, as you indicate, it really isn't a particularly groundbreaking style, but these people often do have a standoffishness, which could be interpreted as elitism.  But perhaps they are just proud of being the current torchbearers of a venerable tradition.  Men have been trying to look like women since long before they put on suits.  Men have always made scenes by crossdressing. Most famously the Roman Emperors: Caligula, Nero, Elagabalus, and others.  From Greek vases and other pictorial representations, we can observe countless men dressing or doing their faces like women.  Not to mention the number of gods who would take male and female form at will, were always both, or dressed as women.   Bhoddisatvas, Shiva, Aztec gods, even Hercules was accused of it.   In our own time, we have Beaument or something who was at Louis XV's court, J. Edgar Hoover, etc.  But still, when David Bowie, Alice Cooper and the rest put on a dress it is as if they are tearing society to shreds.  Then in very recent times Marilyn Manson and Beckham do it again, and there is an uproar.  And of course the Thesbians always have been men, from Greece to China, and had to dress like woman. Having equated all of these apples and oranges, what then are my personal thoughts on the subject?  I think it should be accepted as a silly but inevitable part of the history of fashion and manhood.   The hipsters in Williamsburg may not be so creative, but when I see them in other places, I always rejoice.  There were several such types at my university, and I was always happy to see them.  On a cold snowy winter morning, a drag queen type in a tight velvet suit, cowboy boots, a bright ascot, and made-up to the nines, never failed to bring a smile to my face.  But this is a little different from the hipsters, I suppose.  Yes, if you're going to do it, be a grand dame, not just a Dior wannabe.
I think you're confusing the desire for fitted (tight, even) clothing amongst the tiny with gender identity issues.
post #18 of 26
You're right. I was getting far too confused about gender identity. Well, as far as tight-fitting clothing goes, I approve of it entirely. I hate going into store after store and finding the same boring unfitted stuff. It doesn't matter if I am in a thrift store or Louis Boston. Brioni, oxxford, etc., everything fits like a sail and the sleeves barely go beyond my elbows - and I am not thin like the little dudes in Williamsburg, just 6'1 and 160 pounds. 38Ls can be good but they are hard to find, but the pants are usually still too baggy for my taste, even in Jil Sander or Helmut Lang. In fact I prefer the fabric and construction of the brands favored here like RLPL, Kiton, Belvest, etc, but just not the fit. In Europe and China even many stylish young men wear very tight-fitting clothes and don't feel like they have committed a sin, or are advertising that they are gay. These clothes are available to them, so they don't have to buy women's clothing. I see that it is a tradition in America to value comfort, practicality, and subtlety, and I certainly respect a man wearing a bespoke suit in beautiful fabric, but other options should be available. A bit of variety always improves the visual pageant of the streets. And I am quite envious of the way women are allowed to dress. Tight-ass pants and suits should be available in all fabrics for men, and not just women. I haven't started dressing in women's clothing yet, but maybe I will.....
post #19 of 26
Quote:
You're right.  I was getting far too confused about gender identity.   I haven't started dressing in women's clothing yet, but maybe I will.....    
For someone nicked "Lydia", I'm quite concerned you are taking it a bit too far. .luc
post #20 of 26
Quote:
You're right. I was getting far too confused about gender identity. Well, as far as tight-fitting clothing goes, I approve of it entirely. I hate going into store after store and finding the same boring unfitted stuff. It doesn't matter if I am in a thrift store or Louis Boston. Brioni, oxxford, etc., everything fits like a sail and the sleeves barely go beyond my elbows - and I am not thin like the little dudes in Williamsburg, just 6'1 and 160 pounds. 38Ls can be good but they are hard to find, but the pants are usually still too baggy for my taste, even in Jil Sander or Helmut Lang. In fact I prefer the fabric and construction of the brands favored here like RLPL, Kiton, Belvest, etc, but just not the fit. In Europe and China even many stylish young men wear very tight-fitting clothes and don't feel like they have committed a sin, or are advertising that they are gay. These clothes are available to them, so they don't have to buy women's clothing. I see that it is a tradition in America to value comfort, practicality, and subtlety, and I certainly respect a man wearing a bespoke suit in beautiful fabric, but other options should be available. A bit of variety always improves the visual pageant of the streets. And I am quite envious of the way women are allowed to dress. Tight-ass pants and suits should be available in all fabrics for men, and not just women. I haven't started dressing in women's clothing yet, but maybe I will.....
My girlfriend has often complained of baggy clothes for women, for the same reason. It is very difficult for her to find a well fitted garment, unless she buys the couture stuff by designers like Chanel or Luis Vuitton, and also she likes BCBG Azria because they make some nicely fitted stuff. It's driven her so crazy that she is starting her own clothing line. She is always asking why everything is so boxy and baggy. The answer is always the same: The average American adult is seriously overweight, but they still want to wear a 32, or a size 6, or whatever they wore at 21. So manufacturers make men and women's garments larger but put a smaller size on the label so people will buy it. And, tight clothing does not look flattering on the average adult American male or female. I also am thin and have a hard time finding very well-fitting clothing. That bums me out because it makes my casual attire look sloppy. I've had Sarah (my girlfriend) make numerous adjustments to various pieces of clothing to get a better fit, and that helps. It's all quite simple though. Americans are disgustingly fat. Most would rather watch television than go for a short walk. And many would rather eat a Big Mac than a carrot. So, we all have to wear parachutes.
post #21 of 26
Quote:
My girlfriend has often complained of baggy clothes for women, for the same reason. It is very difficult for her to find a well fitted garment, unless she buys the couture stuff by designers like Chanel or Luis Vuitton, and also she likes BCBG Azria because they make some nicely fitted stuff. It's driven her so crazy that she is starting her own clothing line.
Cool, is she a DIYer, or did she train at FIT or Parsons or somewhere else. If BCBG fits her (and the cuts are not *that* slim*, she should really look into numerous independent LA designers, or the smallest sizes at APC and/or Agnes B., which fits great on thin, waify looking women like Sarah is. Much cooler that BCBG too, imo.
Quote:
She is always asking why everything is so boxy and baggy. The answer is always the same: The average American adult is seriously overweight, but they still want to wear a 32, or a size 6, or whatever they wore at 21. So manufacturers make men and women's garments larger but put a smaller size on the label so people will buy it. And, tight clothing does not look flattering on the average adult American male or female. I also am thin and have a hard time finding very well-fitting clothing. That bums me out because it makes my casual attire look sloppy. I've had Sarah (my girlfriend) make numerous adjustments to various pieces of clothing to get a better fit, and that helps.
And you are shopping in Seattle. Go to LA boutiques, where a size 8 is often the largest available size for a woman, and more designery shops don't carry men's pant sizes about 36, and NYC, (not so body conscious), but where numerous smaller designers cater to the thinner (or fitter) guy. Unis makes great overcoats, for example, at a third of the price that Dior does. I wear a medium in Unis, and it fits well and snug on me (I'm just 5'1" and 165 lbs or so) and a large in Yoko Devereaux stuff. A Fake London Genius jacket in a medium is an small-small in an American or a "classic" high end Italian brand made for the American market. PM me your measurements, and I'll tell you what size in which brands you should be buying, and which brands to avoid altogether, since the cuts are designed for the fat 50 yr execs that can afford them (but still look crap.)
post #22 of 26
Quote:
PM me your measurements, and I'll tell you what size in which brands you should be buying, and which brands to avoid altogether, since the cuts are designed for the fat 50 yr execs that can afford them (but still look crap.)
Well, well, LA Guy, just share with us all .luc
post #23 of 26
LA Guy - she didn't go to school for clothing design. She has a BFA in sculpture from the UW. She likes thin, draping dresses which flatter her figure, and BCBG used to have plenty of those, in more of a 40's style. I'm not describing this correctly, but it's womens clothing, so you have to forgive my ignorance. I know she really loves that one lady designer from LA, Betty whatever, I forget the name. We were in LA last September, and she bought a lot of clothes down there, and was still unhappy. We mostly shopped on Melrose and Rodeo. Sarah is very thin - 5'10", 110lbs maybe? (I hope she does not read this), size 4 or 6 I think, with very long legs and also a longer trunk, so it's hard for her to find things that really work for her at regular stores. The last time we were in LA (September), and shopping for clothes, Sarah had an even harder time finding properly fitted clothing, as the trend to make sizing appear smaller is even stronger there than in regular stores. She was buying size 2 and 4 dresses, and I think she is normally a 6 although I am not sure. I just know she had to buy clothes that were one or two sizes smaller than regular to fit into things, and it tended to vary pretty dramatically. She hates RTW clothing for that reason, and that's why she wants to design her own line now. She is absolutely obsessed with creating (or finding) a well-fitted jacket without it being frumpy. She bought 3 jackets last week, all of which she hates now. Heh heh. It's frightening to watch. Every day a new jacket. I've never seen someone go through so much stuff. If you are aware of good women's designers, PM them to me and I will forward them on. She would love that info.
post #24 of 26
Quote:
Well, well, LA Guy, just share with us all
Too much work to be in a flamewar right now, but I'll file for future thread: Brands LA Guy thinks are for fatties only. Linux pro, Sarah is really thin. There is no way she was a 6, even back in the 40's. Maybe in the 20's... She is more like a 0 or a 2. Even by European standards she is incredibly thin and tall - model proportions. Designers who make stuff that she'd like... I'm going to have to think about it. Off the top of my head, I would say that Hussein Chalayan's cuts might work, though he is more interested in details than in drape. leif and tooya ritchey, a line I've only ever seen at Stels in Boston, might be an option. They are especially interested in drape. Have you tried Ghost - a London based line? They have a store on North Robertson last I knew. Maybe Proenza Schouler is yet another option? Maybe, if there is any hippie in her, Catherine Malandrino? For cheaper stuff, APC has a dress that this season that may work as well. I know men's sportswear pretty well though, so do PM me. As for jackets, I know Sarah's feeling. I own about a dozen (maybe more now) casual jackets. My favorite is my moleskin Costume National, but I would love to get it custom made slightly differently. Cloak, Costume, and Yoko Devereaux have made the jackets I like the most, but I have problems with each. Ah well.
post #25 of 26
Well, if your girlfriend needs a good jacket, let us know. You should see the jackets she is designing. Very slim-fitting, tapered in at the middle, cashmere/wool blend I think, with a nice fur collar for that little poof at the top. She's making them to be warm enough for winter wear (10-20 F), yet not frumpy and thick. They are meant to wear more like a tight Juicy Couture hoody type sweater or something (she would kill me if she read that description), but without a hood. Not sure how to describe it better. I will post a pic when the lady creating the prototype finally gets it back to us (it's been 2 months now). The jacket is very nice. I was quite impressed. Unfortunately, the woman handling construction seems incompetent and is taking forever.
post #26 of 26
Of course, Prada did a lot of 40's and 50's inspired stuff for 90's women. Azzedine Alaia does some great dresses as well that Sarah may like.
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