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Why Bespoke Shirts? - Page 2

post #16 of 133
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(imageWIS \tPosted on Feb. 21 2005,10:52) Ah, Alex if you only allowed one shirt for your initial order.
Dear Jon, Would you like salt and pepper ... or mustard ... for that foot? The six minimum is only on bespoke. We make single R-T-W shirts all the time - and they use client measurements, not stock patterns. Would you like to make your appointment now, or call when it is more convenient? BTW, just received a new shipment of white linen about an hour ago. Should I post a photo?
Dear God yes yes yes. Alex, what would be the price for a white linen shirt as I described before (eg. double cuffs, able to be work with a tie, but usually not)?
post #17 of 133
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(Alexander Kabbaz @ Feb. 21 2005,12:02) We make single R-T-W shirts all the time - and they use client measurements, not stock patterns.
I'm confused. How is a shirt that is made to a client's measurements RTW?
Yes, please do tell. As well, will you pre-wash the linen so it can be washed and dried via machine? Jon.
post #18 of 133
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(Alexander Kabbaz @ Feb. 21 2005,12:02) We make single R-T-W shirts all the time - and they use client measurements, not stock patterns.
I'm confused. How is a shirt that is made to a client's measurements RTW?
And yes...what exactly is the difference?
post #19 of 133
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The six minimum is only on bespoke. We make single R-T-W shirts all the time - and they use client measurements, not stock patterns.
Alex, this is confusing, is the Kabbaz RTW actually something between MTM and true bespoke? William
post #20 of 133
Thread Starter 
In my opinion, M-T-M means that someone takes measurements. Then they make a sample and send it for approval. If necessary, they make any corrections to the sample shirt and the cutting instructions and then proceed with the remainder of your order. In our case, we take as many measurements as we can get (best if we do them, not quite as good if they are supplied to us). From these measurements, we cut the R-T-W shirt. No sample is involved, so it does not, IMHO, qualify as M-T-M. However, because we use the client's measurements, the yoke, sleeves, neck, waist, chest, and hips fit as properly as they can without going through the actual fitting process. The actual fabric, cutting, trimming, and making of the shirt is exactly the same as for our bespoke shirts. Hence, I put our method neither between, above, nor below anyone else's process. It is a bit unique, but I would not have the temerity to call it M-T-M. I hope reading this leaves you less confused than before. If not, hopefully the quality of my shirts exceeds that of my explanation.
post #21 of 133
I am slowly but surely converting to all bespoke shirts for business wear. The fit is so much better than RTW on me. RTW tend to have too much fabric through the waist, and the bespoke fit more smoothly. I love being able to choose my own cloth and patterns too. My bespoke shirts are all from WW Chan in Hong Kong. At about $100 a shirt, it's a pretty good deal. I still haven't purchased any bespoke casual shirts or button downs.
post #22 of 133
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I am slowly but surely converting to all bespoke shirts for business wear. The fit is so much better than RTW on me. RTW tend to have too much fabric through the waist, and the bespoke fit more smoothly. I love being able to choose my own cloth and patterns too. My bespoke shirts are all from WW Chan in Hong Kong. At about $100 a shirt, it's a pretty good deal. I still haven't purchased any bespoke casual shirts or button downs.
ditto absolutely everything you said
post #23 of 133
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In my opinion, M-T-M means that someone takes measurements. Then they make a sample and send it for approval. If necessary, they make any corrections to the sample shirt and the cutting instructions and then proceed with the remainder of your order. In our case, we take as many measurements as we can get (best if we do them, not quite as good if they are supplied to us). From these measurements, we cut the R-T-W shirt. No sample is involved, so it does not, IMHO, qualify as M-T-M. However, because we use the client's measurements, the yoke, sleeves, neck, waist, chest, and hips fit as properly as they can without going through the actual fitting process. The actual fabric, cutting, trimming, and making of the shirt is exactly the same as for our bespoke shirts. Hence, I put our method neither between, above, nor below anyone else's process. It is a bit unique, but I would not have the temerity to call it M-T-M. I hope reading this leaves you less confused than before. If not, hopefully the quality of my shirts exceeds that of my explanation.  
I think this definitely leaves us less confused, but most certainly more curious. What do you charge for "Kabbazian RTW"?
post #24 of 133
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In my opinion, M-T-M means that someone takes measurements. Then they make a sample and send it for approval. If necessary, they make any corrections to the sample shirt and the cutting instructions and then proceed with the remainder of your order.
I have never come accross a made-to-measure program that offers a sample shirt.  Many so-called "bespoke" outfits don't even do one.
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In our case, we take as many measurements as we can get (best if we do them, not quite as good if they are supplied to us). From these measurements, we cut the R-T-W shirt. No sample is involved, so it does not, IMHO, qualify as M-T-M. However, because we use the client's measurements, the yoke, sleeves, neck, waist, chest, and hips fit as properly as they can without going through the actual fitting process.
If, as I believe you said before, there is a de novo and not a stock pattern, then I would indeed call this better than the typical MTM shirt, even without a sample. I'm curious too: what's the cost?
post #25 of 133
Thread Starter 
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(Manton \tPosted on Feb. 21 2005,15:26) I have never come accross a made-to-measure program that offers a sample shirt. Many so-called "bespoke" outfits don't even do one.
In this case, seeing that no names have been mentioned, I can offer an honest opinion of the practice described by our right honorable scribe: That sucks. How the hell can you call it made-to-measure without testing the cut? .@#.#. Made-to-Style, maybe.
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(chorse123 \tPosted on Feb. 21 2005,15:14) What do you charge for "Kabbazian RTW"?
Swiss and Italian cottons range from $550 to $875 depending solely** upon the fabric selected. We charge no more or less to make 1-5 shirts without a fitting process than we do for six or more bespoke. We charge no more or less depending upon the style selected**. A few current examples would include 2x2 100s - $550, 2x2 170/180s - $675, 2x2 200s - $875 Zendaline - $675 and Summer linen $675. Monogramming and shipping are additional. Going forward, should you have a question about price, please send me a PM or an e-mail. I write here on the SF because I enjoy sharing knowledge with - and learning from - a group of very interested fellows. I do not wish to turn J's goodnatured-ness into an advertising program.
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** Re: Styling, There is one exception. Shirts made with that which we traditionally call the "Italian collar" are $165 additional. These are only made in the 'bespoke' manner.
post #26 of 133
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That sucks. How the hell can you call it made-to-measure without testing the cut?
It's MTM in the sense that the shirt really is made to individual measurements, about a dozen in all.  That is certainly not possible with RTW.
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There is one exception. Shirts made with that which we traditionally call the "Italian collar" are $165 additional. These are only made in the 'bespoke' manner.
What do you mean by "Italian collar"?
post #27 of 133
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(Manton \tPosted on Feb. 21 2005,20:34) That is certainly not possible with RTW.
Your contention postulates an absolute with which I do not agree.
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(IBID) What do you mean by "Italian collar"?
Your inquiry is of a beauty among beauties; of perfection indescribable with mere prose. Words fail me.
post #28 of 133
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Your contention postulates an absolute with which I do not agree.
Well, I guess it's theoretically possible for RTW outlets to stock shirts not just by neck and sleeve but by a dozen different measurements in all combinations but who on earth actually does that?
post #29 of 133
Thread Starter 
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(Manton \tPosted on Feb. 21 2005,21:15) Well, I guess it's theoretically possible for RTW outlets to stock shirts not just by neck and sleeve but by a dozen different measurements in all combinations but who on earth actually does that?
Assuming the veracity of the definition you offer of R-T-W, your theory is completely correct. I suppose the majority would accept your definition. I was merely trying to offer the alternative that a non M-T-M and non-bespoke shirt, in other words one which is ready to wear upon receipt by the buyer, can be cut according to the general dimensions of the buyer and would fit other buyers of similar dimensions. The more I write, the less I find myself able to wiggle away from your point that the measurements of the buyer factor heavily in the outcome. Therefore I concede to your greater wisdom, admit defeat, and sentence myself to another entire day of cutting linen shirts.
post #30 of 133
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Advantage One: Be the first on your block
The aim with a shirt is not to wear the last fashion but to be classic. So it is useless to pay 5 times the price of an H&K if you wear white, blue and white/blue striped shirts.
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Advantage Two: You order type of fabric which suits your purpose
If you wear classic shirts = white, blue, plain or striped, you can find the same fabrics in RTW shirts
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