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A discussion on the No means Yes mantra

post #1 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:26pm
Thread Starter 
I was recently enjoying a fine diner with some friends when the topic of rape insidiously came on the table (don't ask). I posited that I ignored the first "no" heard during a physical encounter, chalking it up to cultural mores and usually went on, then stopped petting but stayed ready if I heard a second "no" and promptly ejected myself from the situation after the third. Chilly statistics about the prevalence of rape in western societies (20%) came up and some of the women in attendance started looking at me like I had just said I enjoyed ambushing elementary school kids in dark alleys. Does anyone have any opinion on this or should I just stay the unaware predator it appears I've always been?

I'm sure the beautifully balanced and highly researched opinions sf-ers have on women and dating will help make this an exchange of opinion for the ages.
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post #2 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:29pm
I remember being quoted some rape statistics at a mandatory feminist indoctrination session my first year of college. They sounded like BS, so I actually did some research, and lo! they were BS. The actual figures were much lower.

That is neither here nor there, I suppose.
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post #3 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:31pm
I'm waiting for LK to weigh in on this; he seems to be SF's resident expert on the history of rape as an aesthetic and cultural motif...
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post #4 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
I remember being quoted some rape statistics at a mandatory feminist indoctrination session my first year of college. They sounded like BS, so I actually did some research, and lo! they were BS. The actual figures were much lower.

That is neither here nor there, I suppose.

I did the same thing with the same result. As far as I can remember the stats tended to be inflated by conflating inappropriate gestures with sexual aggressions.

Amusingly enough the 20% argument is often used when discussing the prevalence of homosexuality. I guess it sounds low enough that you don't think your interlocutor is one of them limp wrested folks but high enough to show you ITS VERY IMPORTANT.
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post #5 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
I was recently enjoying a fine diner with some friends when the topic of rape insidiously came on the table (don't ask). I posited that I ignored the first "no" heard during a physical encounter, chalking it up to cultural mores and usually went on, then stopped petting but stayed ready if I heard a second "no" and promptly ejected myself from the situation after the third. Chilly statistics about the prevalence of rape in western societies (20%) came up and some of the women in attendance started looking at me like I had just said I enjoyed ambushing elementary school kids in dark alleys. Does anyone have any opinion on this or should I just stay the unaware predator it appears I've always been?

I'm sure the beautifully balanced and highly researched opinions sf-ers have on women and dating will help make this an exchange of opinion for the ages.

You should learn a valuable lesson from this and modify your behavior accordingly:

  • In the future, shut up when this topic comes up in dinner party conversations.

  • Also, don't leave a permanent trail on the internet admitting that it is your practice to ignore a woman when she protests against your sexual predations.
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post #6 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:34pm
I always had my suspicions about you, and now they are confirmed.

This is such a touchy subject, you were brave to stick your toe into the waters my friend. I remember when I was in undergrad, some college was all over the media, somewhere in Ohio I want to say, where the guy would have to say, "I want to touch your breast now, is this okay?" I always thought it was odd the woman was not expected to say, "I plan to grip your raging hard on, is this okay?" Basically, double standard, all men as predator fully in place.

To the direct subject: ever notice how many bodice rippers seem to involve ravishment? Being so popular, you have to extrapolate there is a percent of the female population that welcome the right man, and there's the key I think, forcing himself on her. If it turns into bad sex though, I hope you didn't leave any DNA behind!

Human sexuality is such a complicated subject, outside of clear boundary stuff, I don't see how things can be judged outside of context. I dated a girl once that would say "no" as the outer clothes came off, say "no" as the panties came off, say "no" as the act started. It was just her schtick, for lack of a better word.

I think "no" with having your hands removed from the area, or she gets up, or bodily pushes you away, is a far different type of "no" said as she melts against you.

How's that for an answer?
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post #7 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:38pm
teh gheys have it so much easier. The idea of "no" even being SAID, much less meant in any real way, is simply ludicrous. There usually isn't even time to say, "Eh, okay... why not?" before the pants are off.
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post #8 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post
You should learn a valuable lesson from this and modify your behavior accordingly:

  • In the future, shut up when this topic comes up in dinner party conversations.

  • Also, don't leave a permanent trail on the internet admitting that it is your practice to ignore a woman when she protests against your sexual predations.

My public online and in the non-virtual world awaits the controversies I'll cause with baited breath. A couple of nights after that diner, at another social encounter I regaled the mostly female guests with anecdotes related to sexual deviancies after some girl told us about this stranger who asked to see the size of her boots under the pretext of purchasing them for his sister and then proceeded to lustfully sniff her nylon covered feet in a public library.
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post #9 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:40pm
What in the world is your avatar, Fuuma? What happened to that cat? That's more "EEKcat" than "LOLcat."
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post #10 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I always had my suspicions about you, and now they are confirmed.

This is such a touchy subject, you were brave to stick your toe into the waters my friend. I remember when I was in undergrad, some college was all over the media, somewhere in Ohio I want to say, where the guy would have to say, "I want to touch your breast now, is this okay?" I always thought it was odd the woman was not expected to say, "I plan to grip your raging hard on, is this okay?" Basically, double standard, all men as predator fully in place.

To the direct subject: ever notice how many bodice rippers seem to involve ravishment? Being so popular, you have to extrapolate there is a percent of the female population that welcome the right man, and there's the key I think, forcing himself on her. If it turns into bad sex though, I hope you didn't leave any DNA behind!

Human sexuality is such a complicated subject, outside of clear boundary stuff, I don't see how things can be judged outside of context. I dated a girl once that would say "no" as the outer clothes came off, say "no" as the panties came off, say "no" as the act started. It was just her schtick, for lack of a better word.

I think "no" with having your hands removed from the area, or she gets up, or bodily pushes you away, is a far different type of "no" said as she melts against you.

How's that for an answer?

Rape fantasies are quite common among women but they involve an idealized encounter in a controlled environment and should in no way be an encouragement to go at it. To give you an idea they're roughly as common as "prostitute fantasies" among men. This doesn't mean chicks could start charging all the time....

But you're right that this is a shaky ground...
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post #11 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
What in the world is your avatar, Fuuma? What happened to that cat? That's more "EEKcat" than "LOLcat."


That's a real cat that suffers from an interesting difformity. I like her(?)
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post #12 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rach2jlc View Post
teh gheys have it so much easier. The idea of "no" even being SAID, much less meant in any real way, is simply ludicrous. There usually isn't even time to say, "Eh, okay... why not?" before the pants are off.

I ended up at an after hour in the gay village last sat and must say I was the only man wearing a shirt and not cuddling with other dudes while swaying to the music....The whole thing always look so easy I wish myopic lesbians not wearing their glasses would gather in a bar where I'd be admitted.

For some stupid reason I decided that day to wear dress shoes, pants, a dress shirt, a sweater and a jacket. I later regretted my sf-approved gettup.
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post #13 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
That's a real cat that suffers from an interesting difformity. I like her(?)
IT's real? I thought maybe it was photoshopped. It is a very interesting deformity... she must hear everything for miles. Anyway, sorry for taking the thread off topic. Back to rape!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post
I ended up at an after hour in the gay village last sat and must say I was the only man wearing a shirt and not cuddling with other dudes while swaying to the music....The whole thing always look so easy I wish myopic lesbians not wearing their glasses would gather in a bar where I'd be admitted.
Yes, it is a privileged life we lead; in addition to all of the "Scoring" possibilities, there's also all the free decorating tips!!!
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post #14 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:48pm
I think the way that a woman says "No" is paramount to a discussion about this. If a woman is playfully saying no, then obviously Fuuma is right that it's no big deal to keep going. However, if the no is firm and obviously not meant in a flirtatious way, then it's obvious that you need to stop whatever it is you're doing.

I guess you get into the problem of how you interpret her words might not be how she intends them, but still.
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post #15 of 88
10/30/08 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwilkinson View Post
I think the way that a woman says "No" is paramount to a discussion about this. If a woman is playfully saying no, then obviously Fuuma is right that it's no big deal to keep going. However, if the no is firm and obviously not meant in a flirtatious way, then it's obvious that you need to stop whatever it is you're doing.

So, if pepper spray is involved, then that means it is a "firm" no?

Please advise.
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