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Can someone please explain khakis? - Page 8

post #106 of 132
Thread Starter 
I thought I had made clear that I am incapable of fathering children so that would never be a factor. Also, I think upbringing plays a role in one's outlook on things. I should mention that my Father lives on the Upper Westside (78th & Westend) and at the age of 55 still loves New York completely, often stating that there is New York, and then there is "the world." When "Gangs of New York" was released, he was horrified with some number of trivial historical innacuracies in the movie and wrote a lengthy diatribe about the history of the 5 points, Boss Tweed and Tamanny Hall and its impact on the living conditions of poor New Yorkers (with special emphasis on the Irish immigrants), and so on, and had it published. He did this because he said the Great City deserved to have her story told and her honor defended. He refuses to buy a home in Connecticut and make the move, even as most of his peers have already done so. When my sister and I were pestering him to follow them (so we could inherit the condo), he said, "If you want my condo, you're going to wait until I'm either dead or in a retirement home, and I don't plan on retiring for a while." My mother lives with her lesbian partner in Nob Hill, in San Francisco, where she is actively involved with gay rights, and is currently working with a very high-powered team of folks to ensure the right of gay Americans to marry if they so choose. She also, at the age of 52, has stated that she does not ever want to leave the city in which she lives, and I have never known her to live outside of urban areas (she moved to Boston after the divorce, then to Los Angeles, and finally on to San Francisco, which she loves almost as much as her wife). Both of my parents are role models in my life. They both are complex, brilliant, loving, emotionally rich, highly developed, very urbane people who never exposed me to life in a suburb as a child, and my ideas regarding "suburban sprawl" were in large part given to me as a child. They don't agree with my ferocity regarding the topic, but you would be hard pressed to find them anywhere near a suburb. And for obvious reasons with my mother. I went to watch her speak once, and who do you think was standing outside with their hateful, stupid placards? A bunch of bigots from the 'burbs. Those people really disgust me, and that is what I see when I am in the land of Walmarts, strip malls, and cookie-cutter housing developments - a bunch of bigots and puritans trying to create the ultimate WASP paradise, free of "fagots and freaks", so they can enjoy their perfect Kodak moments in peace.
post #107 of 132
I don't think your characterization of cities as liberal paradises and suburbs as WASP retreats really holds up...also most cities in the US (and elsewhere in the world) just aren't really nice. My hometown of Madison, WI, is almost entirely suburban, but also happens to be one of the most liberal cities in the US. Try visiting Jacksonville, FL, Tampa, Mobile, AL, Montgomery, AL, Cleveland or Akron, OH, and see what you think...
post #108 of 132
There is definitely something to what drizzt says, above.  Snob Hill and the Yupper West Side are two of the loveliest, and richest, little slices of urban America.  They are hardly representive of American cities.  If every city neighborhood were like those two, people would probably like the cities a lot more.  Whether people could afford to live in them is another story.
post #109 of 132
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"but you would be hard pressed to find them anywhere near a suburb.  And for obvious reasons with my mother.  I went to watch her speak once, and who do you think was standing outside with their hateful, stupid placards?  A bunch of bigots from the 'burbs. "
the mayor of my village is gay. two of the children in my sons nursary class each have 2 momies, and one has a gay white father who had fathered with a single black mother. the parents in my son's class of 30 come from more than 15 countries including from south america, eastern europe, south asia, asia pacific, western europe and africa. I have to admit that one of the reasons that we chose this place was for the diversity, and I will admit that sometimes I have to travel 30 minutes for good indian or thai food (but I am very demanding, I could havew mediocre thai a five minute walk from my house), but you can find a lot of differnet kinds of burbs out there.
post #110 of 132
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There is definitely something to what drizzt says, above.  Snob Hill and the Yupper West Side are two of the loveliest, and richest, little slices of urban America.  They are hardly representive of American cities.  If every city neighborhood were like those two, people would probably like the cities a lot more.  Whether people could afford to live in them is another story.
Excellent point. Edit: I'd question, however, several previous posts that suggest there is a "arc of progress" in which you can tract someone's maturity, from city to suburb. I couldn't live in the suburbs without great difficulty and despair. Give me the city or the country, but nothing in between.
post #111 of 132
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I doubt that Hamilton would have purposely fired into the air.  That was strictly prohibited by the Codes of Dueling, and Hamilton was infatuated with both his own personal honor and the art of the duel. Generally, if both parties missed their shot, they would reload and start over, according to the seriousness of the insult which led to the duel.  It was amazingly complex, and I'd suggest reading the Code Duello
linux pro: I suggest you read a book first before you make such pronuncements. If you've read any of the recent Alexander Hamilton biographies, they suggest that Hamilton wished to shoot his shot into the air. Before the duel, he told his second that this was his plan. And, in the duel, his shot hit some branches almost above him.
post #112 of 132
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 I went to watch her speak once, and who do you think was standing outside with their hateful, stupid placards?  A bunch of bigots from the 'burbs.  Those people really disgust me, and that is what I see when I am in the land of Walmarts, strip malls, and cookie-cutter housing developments - a bunch of bigots and puritans trying to create the ultimate WASP paradise, free of "fagots and freaks", so they can enjoy their perfect Kodak moments in peace.
1.  As a WASP I find highly offensive your misuse of the term, your co-opting of it, and your employment of it as an umbrella term.  Also, next time your visiting the old man, walk across the park to the other side, and you'll see quite a few WASPs. 2.  Have you asked the bigots with placards where they live?  Maybe they're displaced working class urbanites.  You don't think that until recently the cities contained those who boycott these types of events?  Until very recently cities contained all types.  It was just with the entrance of nouveau-ubranites, those loft-dwellers and post-collegiates, that those who'd lived in the city for generations have been pushed out. Re-reading your posts, I almost think they're satire.  It's almost as if your apeing an obtuse young kid who's read a little Max Weber and Marx, gotten a few ideas, listened to a bit too much music bemoaning the 'burbs.  It's a form of intolerant liberalism.  And this is coming from someone who considers himself an FDR democrat. Also, while I'm in accord with your feelings toward Walmart, strip malls, and housing developments, one of your previous comments about the market for art being greater in urbania rather than it's cousin sub., is dubious. Edit:  PS. re-reading my post, I note that the tone can be construed as insulting, which I don't mean at all. I'm interested in critiquing your ideas.
post #113 of 132
Thread Starter 
Equire - funny you should mention it, I'm currently reading Ron Chernow's biography of Hamilton. A very interesting read, but I'm only into it about 100 pages. It seems shocking that Hamilton would have fired into the air. Why would he have done that? He would have known that it meant suicide or dishonor. And Hamilton was fiercely passionate about his reputation and being perceived as a man of honor. Horace:
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1. As a WASP I find highly offensive your misuse of the term, your co-opting of it, and your employment of it as an umbrella term. Also, next time your visiting the old man, walk across the park to the other side, and you'll see quite a few WASPs.
WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. I used it both in this context, and misappropriated it as a more general term for the middle classes, which are now comprised of many races and religions.
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2. Have you asked the bigots with placards where they live? Maybe they're displaced working class urbanites. You don't think that until recently the cities contained those who boycott these types of events? Until very recently cities contained all types. It was just with the entrance of nouveau-ubranites, those loft-dwellers and post-collegiates, that those who'd lived in the city for generations have been pushed out.
I asked them nothing and made a point of not communicating with them. The police asked us to avoid interaction with the crowd, and so we did. Many of them were wearing t-shirts with various christian slogans, so I would assume they did not live inside San Francisco. That city is a poor choice for christian bigots, and always has been. And your statement about displacement is erroneous. New housing and updated housing is generally built or restored in areas which have suffered some loss in popularity, where property can be picked up at a much lower cost. Those "noveau-urbanites" are well known among developers to bring great vitality to depressed areas, and as such, are quite popular. Nobody was ever forced out. Quite the contrary. If that was the case, than the depressed area would not be depressed, it would be booming, and property values would increase. As such, most city governments greatly encourage growth, bending over backwards to attract developers and "nouveau-urbanites" to fill space left void by previous residents, who rather than being forced out, fled to the burbs to find "tranquility" and "safety", or in reality, a standard of living which they did not consider possible in an urban environment (I believe a previous poster referred to this as "kicking up your feet and looking at a tree", something like that).
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Re-reading your posts, I almost think they're satire. It's almost as if your apeing an obtuse young kid who's read a little Max Weber and Marx, gotten a few ideas, listened to a bit too much music bemoaning the 'burbs. It's a form of intolerant liberalism. And this is coming from someone who considers himself an FDR democrat.
Yes, I can understand that, although I would not describe myself as "obtuse", although my previous posts could definitely be described as such. The anonymity of the internet allows one to at times vent something in a way they never would in normal social interactions. In person, I am very well spoken and it would be rare to find me venting in such a manner. I was embarassed after reading my posts. And yes, I read way too much as a kid (Kropotkin, Goldman, Marx, Engels, Neitschze, the typical stuff for teenagers), and also loved music that expressed a very strong distate for the middle class lifestyle. I believe it was Manton who stated somewhere on this forum that there is a tendency in the upper-middle classes to aspire to upper class status and detest the middle classes, and take drastic measures to not be viewed as such. Somewhere, I might have picked up this mindset. I can relate to it, as embarassing as that might be. Definitely, the reason I came to this forum was to learn to dress in a fashion that would definitely not be confused with the mannerisms of the middle classes. I can admit that, on an obscure internet forum. I would never admit it in person. I had assumed, possibly erroneously, that other people attracted to the services of bespoke tailors and shoemakers would share that mindset. I know that it is pretentious, if you were to adhere to the dictionary definition of pretentious. I'm not extraordinarily wealthy, and I am unsure that I aspire to that, but I definitely do not want to be confused with any member of the middle classes. Bespoke tailors, shoemakers, fine restaurants, winemakers, they should all be grateful that people like me exist. It means nothing to me to spend $1000 on a pair of shoes or $4000 on a jacket, just to throw out some random numbers. I haven't seen any prices on clothing that would really affect my capital situation. It's not the price I care about, it is in large part whether this item is the very best and it's the way I feel about myself and my social status when I am wearing said item, and also how I will be perceived by others (along with, in huge part, the comfort and quality of the clothing). To see it in print like this is very distasteful, but I am being honest. I greatly enjoy fine things, but frankly, think about it: Why else do you think someone is so willing to drop $10k on a suit, without wincing like some penny-pinching prole? Either: A) they are a member of an extremely small group of people who have so much capital they no longer need to worry about it, and I'm talking about more than $50m here, or B) they want the very best in life and what it represents, which has very little to do with money, and view those purchases as a type of investment with great dividends. You can't buy good taste, proper manners, and a proper upbringing, but you better believe I'm going to make every attempt to change that if possible. That is also why I'll be one of the ones buying Manton's book (hurry up with it man.), and living by some of those rules. I want there to be no doubt in the minds of those I meet that my taste, intelligence, manners, and so on are reflective of a class greater than that in which I was raised. I mentioned it earlier, one of my first posts, my goal upon meeting someone is always to come across so SHARP they will not forget our meeting anytime soon. And that is why I detest chinos. I realize I am going to get flamed here, but frankly, it feels nice to admit all that stuff somewhere, and just get it off my chest.
post #114 of 132
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 It seems shocking that Hamilton would have fired into the air.  Why would he have done that?  He would have known that it meant suicide or dishonor.  And Hamilton was fiercely passionate about his reputation and being perceived as a man of honor. I believe it was Manton who stated somewhere on this forum that there is a tendency in the upper-middle classes to aspire to upper class status and detest the middle classes, and take drastic measures to not be viewed as such.  Somewhere, I might have picked up this mindset.  I can relate to it, as embarassing as that might be.  Definitely, the reason I came to this forum was to learn to dress in a fashion that would definitely not be confused with the mannerisms of the middle classes.  I can admit that, on an obscure internet forum.  I would never admit it in person.  I had assumed, possibly erroneously, that other people attracted to the services of bespoke tailors and shoemakers would share that mindset.   I know that it is pretentious, if you were to adhere to the dictionary definition of pretentious.
I can't say that I have read the actualy book of the code of dueling, but my understanding was that it was dishonorable to try to evade a shot, but not to try not to hit your opponent. I do agree that it was virtual suicide, but there have been a number of american statesmen who have more of less commited suicide in similar manners (I count Lee, for instance). but it is an interstign story. again, not to be patronizing, but I had very similar feelings to yours when I was a certain age (and not to be a real smuck, but that was when I was about 8 years younger than you now). I wanted very much to reinvent myself with a higher class persona. with a certain maturity comes a certain comfort in ones skin - I wear all bespoke clothing, I eat certain foods, I live a certain way, but I don't do it to give people a false picture of who I am, but because I get enjoyment out of these certain things in life. I am middle class, perhaps most of my values aren't, perhaps they are, but that is where I am. I live pretty well, by many standards, and I do not regret most of the choices that have brought me to where I am in life. I probrably have less equity and capital than most people on this forum, I probrably have less clothes (non of which are western european), I have an older, less fancy car, there is a good chance that I have less education that the average. I have a package of experiences that is pretty unusual, a great family, a great group of pretty exceptional friends and a very comfortable existance. those were my choices and my values, I wouldn't discourage anyone from pursuing them, but I wouldn't encourage them either. maybe, with a little more life, you will also find a set of values and goals out of life that you will be comfrotable with, that you wouldn't be embarressed at having your friends hear about, and that might bring you long term happiness. anyway, good luck to you.
post #115 of 132
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... I definitely do not want to be confused with any member of the middle classes.  It's not the price I care about, it is in large part whether this item is the very best and it's the way I feel about myself and my social status when I am wearing said item, and also how I will be perceived by others (along with, in huge part, the comfort and quality of the clothing)....  You can't buy good taste, proper manners, and a proper upbringing, but you better believe I'm going to make every attempt to change that if possible.
I feel as though I've met this gentleman before somewhere. Perhaps: Jay Gatsby LP: I'm sorry for quoting you out of context, but I truly hope these are not your real ambitions.
post #116 of 132
Thread Starter 
That is a sharply dressed fellow.
post #117 of 132
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(gorgekko @ Feb. 10 2005,12:08) Do you hate khakis more than communism or fascism?
I say this out of genuine surprise and not out of a desire to ratchet up the ad hominem factor here, but that's an awfully strange question for someone with your avatar to ask.
I celebrate the man's sartorial sense, not his politics. My family has a very long history of fighting both communists and fascists as the graves on both sides of my family line testify to.
post #118 of 132
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To anyone else who is reading this, and might have been offended by my posts, I do heartily apologize. I realize I was being a little manic and getting far too worked up about something silly. I attempted, unsuccessfully, to make it humorous.
You failed quite badly at that. I was about to write that you may be the biggest ass on this board since I showed up but then, sigh, you had to go and apologize
post #119 of 132
I've just come across this thread while browsing. I would like to ask linux_pro if his avatar is an actual picutre of him.
post #120 of 132
Thread Starter 
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I've just come across this thread while browsing. I would like to ask linux_pro if his avatar is an actual picutre of him.
Yes. Why?
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