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Six Basic Weight Training Questions

post #1 of 27
8/28/08 at 12:15am
Thread Starter 
Dear Internet Muscleheads:

It doesn't take long to figure out that there are a lot of informed opinions when it comes to weight training on this message board. With the way studies are quoted around here, it's like being surrounded by a surly gang of upper-division exercise physiology students.

So now it's time to see you Pointdexters put your powers to use for good instead of evil. I've come up with 6 basic workout questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. Depending on what magazine or book you're reading for any given year, you're liable to get a different answer.

What I'd like to know is, to the best of your knowledge, What is the latest, most scientifically-backed answer for each one. Your answer doesn't have to be a dissertation, but if there's a disseratation available somewhere to back it up, that'd be nice.

And failing science, what is the current conventional wisdom for each question? In other words, if you don't have a phD, but just good solid experience and horse sense, I'd like to hear what you're take. This about learning.

So let's say you're a male in your 30s and you're looking to increase both muscle size and strength. To the best of your knowledge:

1. Which is a more effective way of organizing your workouts: full body, or split days.


2. What is the most effect amount of sets per exercise? What is the most effective amount of reps per set?


3. What is the optimal rest period between sets?


4. What is the optimal duration of the workout?


5. How many days of rest can be taken between exercising a muscle before strength actually decreases?


6. Should you train to failure with every exercise at each workout?


Bonus question:

7. Is there a question here that should be asked that I've neglected?
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post #2 of 27
8/28/08 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggers View Post


Bonus question:

7. Is there a question here that should be asked that I've neglected?

Just a small point, some of your questions assume that a definite, most effective way of doing some of these things exists. For things like amount of sets, rest or workout duration the optimal program might be one where you vary those things in a long term program.
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post #3 of 27
8/28/08 at 12:42am
Assuming time is an issue - ie you want the greatest results within the shortest time frame - and that you want to build (as opposed to maintain) muscle, which isn't necessarily the case for everyone but certainly is for myself;

1) Doesn't really matter. I do cardio daily and weight training (full body) 3 times per week. Whether I do 20 minutes X 3 or 10 minutes X 6 it's the same time spent, and the same recovery.

2) For the greatest return - 1 set of 10, maximum 2. You're wasting your time with multiple sets, or not lifting enough.

3) None, simply alternate the muscle groups. The time it takes you to get into a new position is enough rest.

4) Optimum is really up to you - how much time do you want to spend?

5) No idea, I suspect it would be measured in weeks rather than days though.

6) Yes, the 10th lift should be incredibly difficult! Move to the next higher weight ASAP, making sure that the 10th lift is always difficult.

Now having said that let me say - I'm a guy with a job that has no more than 1 hour per day for exercise. That includes travel time, setup, changing etc, so I'm looking for maximum return for time spent. I do about 40 minutes of high intensity cardio daily. I'm not looking to compete, I just want to keep fit. You do the above and you'll get 95% return. Yes there are probably other things that you can do that will take you an exponential amount of additional time for minimal results - the law of diminishing return applies.
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post #4 of 27
8/28/08 at 1:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradstudent78 View Post
Just a small point, some of your questions assume that a definite, most effective way of doing some of these things exists. For things like amount of sets, rest or workout duration the optimal program might be one where you vary those things in a long term program.

I believe you're talking about "periodization," right?

Periodization has always struck me as a little elaborate, expecially for the average joe, but perhaps a truly productive workout plan calls for a more concrete schedule where the techniques change.
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post #5 of 27
8/28/08 at 1:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dclloyd View Post
1) Doesn't really matter. I do cardio daily and weight training (full body) 3 times per week. Whether I do 20 minutes X 3 or 10 minutes X 6 it's the same time spent, and the same recovery.
What if you spent the same amount of time in the gym that you do now, but you did chest and triceps on monday, legs and stomach on wednesday, and back and biceps on friday. You work each muscle more thoroughly, but instead on one day of rest, you get 7 days for each muscle group. (I guess your nervous system is still working hard, but hey.) What would the effect be on your workout?

Quote:
4) Optimum is really up to you - how much time do you want to spend?
From a psychological point of view, I think many people are guided by a rudimentary idea of practice makes perfect, and the more you practice, the more perfect you become. Outcome is directly proportional to effort.

Weight training doesn't seem to respond this way. In fact, there's a tipping point where if you practice too much, you get less perfect, i.e., overtraining. If I thought it would work, I'd probably find the time to be in the gym every day for hours.
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post #6 of 27
8/28/08 at 1:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggers View Post
Dear Internet Muscleheads:

It doesn't take long to figure out that there are a lot of informed opinions when it comes to weight training on this message board. With the way studies are quoted around here, it's like being surrounded by a surly gang of upper-division exercise physiology students.

So now it's time to see you Pointdexters put your powers to use for good instead of evil. I've come up with 6 basic workout questions that have plagued mankind for centuries. Depending on what magazine or book you're reading for any given year, you're liable to get a different answer.

What I'd like to know is, to the best of your knowledge, What is the latest, most scientifically-backed answer for each one. Your answer doesn't have to be a dissertation, but if there's a disseratation available somewhere to back it up, that'd be nice.

And failing science, what is the current conventional wisdom for each question? In other words, if you don't have a phD, but just good solid experience and horse sense, I'd like to hear what you're take. This about learning.

So let's say you're a male in your 30s and you're looking to increase both muscle size and strength. To the best of your knowledge:

1. Which is a more effective way of organizing your workouts: full body, or split days.


2. What is the most effect amount of sets per exercise? What is the most effective amount of reps per set?


3. What is the optimal rest period between sets?


4. What is the optimal duration of the workout?


5. How many days of rest can be taken between exercising a muscle before strength actually decreases?


6. Should you train to failure with every exercise at each workout?


Bonus question:

7. Is there a question here that should be asked that I've neglected?

1. Split days. Simply because if you train balls to walls squats in your first exercise, you wont have the energy to do heavy benches.

2. Depends on the individual. Conventional wisdom says 3 sets. Sometimes I do 2 or even 5, not counting warm-up sets which are done at a heavy weight and good form. Dorian even recommends 1.

I find that doing the second set at the same weight, I actually end up doing better.

Reps would depend on whether you want definition or mass etc etc.

3.\tA study in Flex, the bible of journalism says 3 minutes. I only take 3 minutes for difficult exercises like squats or deadlifts. You can rest a shorter duration if you are after a cardio vascular workout. The timing would depend on whether you catch your breath back or not.

4.\tAlso depends. Some people find a gradual reduction in strength in long workouts. I don't really think so. But if you rest too long so that you ended up being cooled down, then it is way too long. It depends on your goals. If you aim to lose weight as well, you should time your heartbeat so that it would be within the fat-burning rate.

5.\tTrain once a week to twice a week like a pro. That will prevent muscle atrophy. I find taking a few weeks off does reduce size and strength.

6.\tOf course. Does a bear shite in the woods? In fact you should go beyond failure by doing drop sets, rest pause, half reps or super sets.
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post #7 of 27
8/28/08 at 1:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dclloyd View Post
For the greatest return - 1 set of 10, maximum 2. You're wasting your time with multiple sets, or not lifting enough.

Wrong!!! If after 1 set of bench, you still can do another at the same weight or more, then you did not exhaust your male boobies. You should push and push until your arms tremble, you feel like puking and your male puppies are quivering jello, then you know you have done it.

Unless you are Dorian of course and 1 set will do.
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post #8 of 27
8/28/08 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beasty View Post
Wrong!!! If after 1 set of bench, you still can do another at the same weight or more, then you did not exhaust your male boobies. You should push and push until your arms tremble, you feel like puking and your male puppies are quivering jello, then you know you have done it.

Unless you are Dorian of course and 1 set will do.

My point was that you should be at that point after one set, not two. If you did not exhaust your "male boobies" after 10 reps you started at too low a weight.
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post #9 of 27
8/28/08 at 11:51am
The best thing to do is not work out.
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post #10 of 27
8/28/08 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
The best thing to do is not work out.

I like eating too much to not work out. A friend of mine has a great quote - "I work out to support my food habit".
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post #11 of 27
8/28/08 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
The best thing to do is not work out.

Yer killin' me.

Here I am, lobbing the balls over the plate -- I can't throw them any slower -- and you won't take a single swing?
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post #12 of 27
8/28/08 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggers View Post
Yer killin' me. Here I am, lobbing the balls over the plate -- I can't throw them any slower -- and you won't take a single swing?
You can't throw a fucking strike. All the questions are asked with no stated goal and have way too many factors. You don't know what you're doing, so the best thing to do is get a book like Starting Strength and start reading.
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post #13 of 27
8/28/08 at 2:15pm
don't listen to any specific advice. i am 6'2, 235 and have been lifting for 13 years and there is NO ONE PROGRAM. it took me 2 years of playing with set/rep schemes, number of days on/off, nutrition, carb rotation, 1 gram of protein per pound, 3 grams per pound, etc.

you need to keep careful records and a food diary to see what progress you're making. every issue of flex, et al. has the same shit month after month. every asshole does the same 5-12 excercises per bodypart.

rest, nutrition and genetics are the mitigating factors.

are you an endo, ecto, meso or a combination. i'm an endo/meso, so i rotate carbs as follows:
50 g - day 1
50 g- day 2
100g-day 3
50 g-day 4
50 g-day 5
100- day 6
300- day 7

works for me, doesn't mean it works for you.
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post #14 of 27
8/28/08 at 3:59pm
There should be an alarm that goes off when somatotypes are mentioned.
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post #15 of 27
8/28/08 at 5:00pm
1.Begginers - fullbody
2.If you aim for hypertrophy, 3x8-12 is a standart.
3.1-2mins would be fine.
4.45-60mins.
5.Not sure, maybe ~3-4 weeks?
6. Umm, if you're doing fullbody routines, I would take it to near-failure.
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