Thanks a lot for the info Steve, that was above and beyond what I was hoping for. Also thanks Renwick, I actually checked the Kitons out Sunday and figured it out by taking a peak into the folds of the tie. Now for another question, are Hermes typically 5 fold for the three I have are? Also what are the quality of Barney's ties for that is what they have a bunch of, not Saks? I have the feeling that most of the ties they have are mediocre at best, but there is a few jems in there like the Kitons. The labels they had were: Kolte, Ugo Rossi, Atea, hicky Freeman, Basile, Z inc, Bassi & Bassi, Christopher Lacroix, Format, Piattelli, Zadi, Barbera, Petronius, Zanzara, Richel, XMI, Venanzi, Krizia Uomo, Nicky, Pavone, Guy Laroche Diffusion, G. Visconti, Charvet, Bottega Veneta, and the Kitons.