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Bourbon. - Page 159

post #2371 of 2382

They aren't promoting KBD, they are promoting Willett. Just because the distillery is owned by a big company doesn't mean it isn't craft. You are thinking of micro distillers and there is a big difference. Craft doesn't necessarily mean small, but micro does. Just like you would say that even though Sam Adams isn't a micro brewery you can still argue that it is craft. The latter simply means that the distillery takes more control over the product. 

post #2372 of 2382
Willett isn't its own operation tho. It's a brand name just like Noah's mill or roans creek is a brand name. Also willett distillery refers to all of KBD. It's an alias. It's not a sub company with separate operations like four roses is a company owned by Kirin but with totally separate operations.

You don't think craft refers to size? The difference between a micro distillery and craft is that micro distilleries produce a lot less. The American craft distillers association defines craft as less than 100000 gallon yearly production which is arbitrary but KBD or willett or whatever you want to call it far exceeds that. Craft beer is also defined by production not some odd notion that the beer is more controlled whatever that means. It's not like the big boy's have less control over their production. Kirin doesn't directly meddle with the production at Four Roses

Really you've just fallen hard for KBD marketing. I mean they make great bourbon but this idea that they're small and craft is marketing
post #2373 of 2382

lol No it's not. Willet has it's own distillery, I've been there and talked to the guy who runs the operation. I get that it's a part of KBD and that's fine, but Willett has it's own grounds and they are quite small. But again, size does not matter. As you must know the ACDA is not the only organization that certifies craft distillers. Other organizations have different quantity limits, others have none at all. So you can't simply pick out one and say that they define it for everyone else. The fact of the matter is that smaller distilleries have been trying to define and protect the term "craft" for some time so that only they can use it. This is n artificial definition that has no basis in history. Crafting has never had any basis in how many cases you sell until the last several years, and even then it is only an accepted measure by the members of those organizations. A much more historically accurate, and generally accepted, measure of what a craft distiller is, is whether or not they handle every step of production, essentially "crafting" a product.

post #2374 of 2382
dude i've been to the distillery. i've seen the stills. they don't have the production capacity to distill all the bourbon they sell.

they started the still back up in 2012. they've owned the still forever and they'll overemphasize that to make is seem like they've been using it forever. but they only recently started using it. what do you mean willet has its own grounds? they're all on one property. they just use different labels for different products

i would tend to agree with you that the term craft brings up an idea of hand made everything from beginning to start (ie more control over process), but willett by that definition especially is not craft because they buy distillate and age it themselves or buy barrels from other companies. that was their whole schtick and why they got such a following. they do an exceptional job at it

the only product they currently sell that they made from beginning to end is the willett 2 year rye.

if you're trying to say that a craft distillery has a hand in every part of the process sazerac, heaven hill, and brown forman (the largest most non craft bourbon makers you can think of) are independently owned and do everything from negotiating and buying the grain, mash, distilling, and ageing in their own warehouses. willet/KBD (Kuvsleen bought Willett and renamed it KBD in 1984) don't. sazerac even makes and maintains their own machines and equipment. all you have to do is google kentucky bourbon distillers. they're an independent bottling company predominantly and only started distilling recently because of the huge demand for bourbon. that willett stuff you like so much isn't KBD. it's heaven hills. this has been known forever. the joke about KBD has always been that they don't actually distill like their name implies and that names like old bardstown distilling company or noah's mill distilling company were deliberately misleading to make it seem like to customers that they were all made by an independent small distillery doing their own thing.

this is the same reason why nobody defines craft as a term to mean "handles every step of production" because it inconveniently places budweiser and jack daniels in the craft category

just read their wiki article. you've honestly fallen for their marketing real hard. not being craft is not a bad thing. willett does a fantastic job whether or not they distill the white dog and whether or not it's considered craft.
Edited by indesertum - Yesterday at 9:20 pm
post #2375 of 2382

The absurdity has reached critical mass. 

post #2376 of 2382
it's ok to admit the brand you've been fanboying about isn't what you thought it was. it's been an open secret that the vast majority of bourbon that everybody sees is made by like 5 companies. all the old "craft bourbon" (like 10 year plus) are are all barrels (and very rarely self aged distillate) bought from those companies. they all use vague marketing speak that makes it sound like it's from the region when the only ingredient sourced from the region is the water they used to dilute the bourbon with. that includes KBD. if you don't believe me just google it yourself

it's on their own website
Quote:
On December 16, 1972, Even G. Kulsveen married Martha Harriet Willett at St. Joseph’s Cathedral in Bardstown, Kentucky. On July 1, 1984, Even G. Kulsveen, son-in-law to Thompson Willett, purchased the property and formed Kentucky Bourbon Distillers, Ltd., registered distillery DSP-KY-78. Even Kulsveen continues to operate at the facility to this day. Martha is President of the Company. Even's son, Drew Kulsveen, joined his father in the beginning of 2004 and Even's daughter, Britt Kulsveen Chavanne, and her husband, Hunter Chavanne, joined the business towards the end of 2005.

Great efforts to restore the distillery, cistern room, aging warehouses and many other aspects of the grounds have been ongoing for several years. Mr. Dave Singer was very instrumental in seeing our dreams come to fruition.
Quote:
So after all these years of renovations and retrofitting, in the early morning hours of January 18, 2012, Drew, Paul, Terry and a few others started cooking a batch of corn, rye and malted barley. Some time close to sun-up that morning they started the fermentation process, and on January 21st Drew fired up the copper pot still. We waited until January 27th to put the first few barrels into storage.

I've met and talked with Britt and Hunter and it's also what they said
post #2377 of 2382
This isn't just an open secret about bourbon. A lot of new craft labels aren't produced in house. They are made by others.
post #2378 of 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhowie View Post

This isn't just an open secret about bourbon. A lot of new craft labels aren't produced in house. They are made by others.


Yea, but there is a difference between a company acknowledging they age / mix product produced by others and a company marketing their products as if they had a hand in the process from grain to bottling. 

post #2379 of 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizzapie View Post


Yea, but there is a difference between a company acknowledging they age / mix product produced by others and a company marketing their products as if they had a hand in the process from grain to bottling. 

Thank you for correcting me on something I said nothing about. Any other things you want to throw your two cents on?
post #2380 of 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhowie View Post


Thank you for correcting me on something I said nothing about. Any other things you want to throw your two cents on?


Wow, just a little sensitive...  My comment had no intention of correcting anything you said, I was adding my "two cents" to a point you were making.

post #2381 of 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

they're an independent bottling company predominantly and only started distilling recently because of the huge demand for bourbon. that willett stuff you like so much isn't KBD. it's heaven hills.

I thought the vast majority of Willett was LDI/MGP make, not Heaven Hill.

Their new pricing is absurd BTW. There's no reason to pay $120+ for an 11-year old bourbon not even distilled by them. I understand they're trying to price it to eliminate the secondary market's upcharge, but still, fuck them.
post #2382 of 2382
from what I understand willett buys from both. if it's been distilled somewhere it will say on the bottle. like that 4 year rye was distilled in Indiana by LDI/MGP and aged by Willett. the older stuff like the 11 year or 20 some year stuff is Heaven Hills barrels they've bought (I could be wrong about this last part because nobody actually knows for sure and I'm pretty sure it has to do with licensing issues ie HH doesn't want Willett profiting off their name)

when I went to golden moon distillery I tried their 11 year single barrel bourbon that was honestly quite quite good. I asked them where they source it from because clearly a 2 year old distillery can't make a 11 year old bourbon and they said they couldn't tell me because when they bought the bourbon the contract said they weren't allowed to tell anybody because the company didn't want them to profit off their name. But they said it was from Louisville and I'm fairly certain the only company large and old enough to sell 11 yo bourbon located in louisville is brown forman. it also tasted very much like birthday bourbon.
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