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Leather Jackets: Post Pictures of the Best You've Seen/Owned? - Page 818

post #12256 of 16654

Ah yes, Hermes. They train their leather artistans from the teen years in a special high school, in fact. Many of the recent graduates have referred to it as the "Hogwarts of the Leatherworking World." They're all signed to lifetime non-competition clauses, though few graduates ever leave the Hermes family...

post #12257 of 16654
kinda related to this whole quality conversation, and also it's just pretty funny: http://www.complex.com/sneakers/2014/10/sneakerheads-dont-know-what-quality-means

this bit echoes the point synth made:
Quote:
My suspicion is that rather than saying, “I like this shoe,” sneakerheads want to claim objective reasoning to show that they are right. That anyone who doesn’t agree with them is wrong. This isn’t a self-centered move, in fact it’s the opposite, it’s a shy move. To do so is to say, “See, I’m right, not because of an opinion that you can disagree with, because of quality.” I say, if you’re not sure how quality is determined, that’s okay. Wear what you want to wear.

i think that's pretty accurate. in my experience when most people talk about quality they don't know what the hell they're talking about, except to say the person has a general impression that the thing is well-made, uses reasonably good materials, and that the person likes it—and of course the person wouldn't like something that wasn't good because he's not a moron so the quality must be good. it's a way of trying to make something subjective into something objective that can't be questioned.

also, trying to determine quality of certain materials can be next to impossible for a consumer because the quality only becomes apparent over time. that goes for a lot of leather, denim, wools, etc. unless you know a lot about the production process, and often there's no visibility into that, it's kind of a crapshoot.
post #12258 of 16654
I think there's something real about ballparking quality, though. Outerwear from Nigel Cabourn, shoes from Saint Crispins, bespoke suits from Savile Row, leather goods from Hermes, etc. There's something to them that definitely feels high-quality. And it's easy to say they're better made than the stuff you might find at H&M, for example.

It's just the nitpicking, in-between stuff that I question. Like when someone tries to say whether Edward Green is better than Lobb, or Brooks Brothers suits better than Ralph Lauren, or Margiela better than Saint Laurent. I just don't think it's easy for a consumer to tell the differences in quality between those things, assuming they even exist (in a meaningful way). And even if they do, I think design trumps any marginal benefit you might get in quality or construction.
post #12259 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post

Leather especially and craftsman are graded. First selection of materials goes to places like Hermes. They get first pick and what's left goes into what's the top tier for everybody else. They probably have an exacting standard and buy all that meet that standard to even out production numbers in years where the number of hides that meet their standards is on the low side.

As for craftsman... people at the height of their craft probably mostly end up at those houses, because they have the skills/standards/tradition and appreciation to further grow, recognize and reward that kind of skill. It's also why the NFL has and hones the best video cameraman in the world.

I think you're not recognizing that the criteria for determining what is a higher or lower grade is often in itself just a matter about preferences and subjectivity.

I'm not saying that quality isn't real, but the idea that people making clothes or leather goods are like the people making rockets is kind of silly. IMO, you should think of high-end fashion stuff more like art than a science. It's perhaps even more akin to cooking -- the process of making a garment or good is like cooking a dish, not scientifically constructing the best thing possible. What someone thinks makes the best dish is very subjective.
post #12260 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Distorbiant View Post

Ah yes, Hermes. They train their leather artistans from the teen years in a special high school, in fact. Many of the recent graduates have referred to it as the "Hogwarts of the Leatherworking World." They're all signed to lifetime non-competition clauses, though few graduates ever leave the Hermes family...

Lucky for me one of their former best has her own shop close by.
post #12261 of 16654
I think you misconstrue my intentions. If I was that focused on quality or whatever I'd only buy Hermes products. I in fact don't own any Hermes products.

Sure you can play the quality is completely subjective card. Sure, people have different sets of values, but I think the closest thing to an objective quality standards is one that is driven by those that pursue it as a life-objective (e.g. craftsman who have dedicated their lives in pursuing a particular standard).

Essentially.... okay quality is subjective so really its pointless to discuss, but if you are going to debate it nevertheless from the stance that something is amazing quality for X measurable reasons then how can you do so without bringing in something like Hermes into the discussion? It gives perspective. Anything else is just a roundabout way of saying "what I like is awesome and the best ever, recognize" even when it is only true with a lot of personal caveats.

To use your cooking analogy.. you don't think there's elements of skill that take years to master that have bearing on the perceivable qualities of the end product? Are you going to go to Sukiyabashi Jiro and tell Jiro "Lol, quality is subjective so you've wasted 80+ years of your life pursuing nothing."

Maybe it doesn't take 80 years to master putting some raw fish on rice or to cut a piece of leather, but if you've done nothing else for decades... I imagine you might have learned a thing or two and your work will reflect that. Even diminishing returns has some returns even if they seem insanely not worth it to us that are less obsessed.
post #12262 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post

I think you misconstrue my intentions. If I was that focused on quality or whatever I'd only buy Hermes products. I in fact don't own any Hermes products. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Sure you can play the quality is completely subjective card. Sure, people have different sets of values, but I think the closest thing to an objective quality standards is one that is driven by those that pursue it as a life-objective (e.g. craftsman who have dedicated their lives in pursuing a particular standard).

Essentially.... okay quality is subjective so really its pointless to discuss, but if you are going to debate it nevertheless from the stance that something is amazing quality for X measurable reasons then how can you do so without bringing in something like Hermes into the discussion? It gives perspective. Anything else is just a roundabout way of saying "what I like is awesome and the best ever, recognize" even when it is only true with a lot of personal caveats.

To use your cooking analogy.. you don't think there's elements of skill that take years to master that have bearing on the perceivable qualities of the end product? Are you going to go to Sukiyabashi Jiro and tell Jiro "Lol, quality is subjective so you've wasted 80+ years of your life pursuing nothing."

Maybe it doesn't take 80 years to master putting some raw fish on rice or to cut a piece of leather, but if you've done nothing else for decades... I imagine you might have learned a thing or two and your work will reflect that. Even diminishing returns has some returns even if they seem insanely not worth it to us that are less obsessed
.

Everything you wrote is just an appeal to authority, which isn't actually discussing what quality means in a substantive way.

I've talked to a lot of craftsmen, and TBH, even they don't give very good answers for what quality means. Exception maybe being shoes, but for everything else, it's pretty fuzzy. Which kind of makes sense, cause you're working with things that are closer to an art form than a science (at least when it comes to the kind of stuff we're talking about). If you were to ask a chef what makes the best dish, he would probably give you the same fuzzy answers. Best ingredients, attention to detail, skill developed for decades, blah blah blah.

We're running around in circles here. My points are:

  • People are often unable to define quality. Even the people who make this stuff. I find it hard to believe then that consumers can make such fine distinctions between two similar brands.
  • Quality is subjective. The guys who like Rick Owens and Buzz Rickson couldn't give two shits about what Hermes deems as higher or lower quality. Those are not the types of skins and constructions they're looking for. If you were to make a vintage repro A2 or a blistered lamb jacket using the methods that Hermes uses, it would be rightly considered a worse jacket than what BR and RO produce.
  • Even to grade skins, Hermes has to come up with a subjective lists of qualities that they consider to be desirable. That's determined by what they're trying to produce -- it's not a list of things handed down from God.


Really, thank God quality isn't so easily reducible and scientific. Clothing would be a huge effing bore if it was.
post #12263 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicelynice View Post

Lad Musician is exactly what you're looking for, minus the buttery soft lamb of SLP leathers - they're all in a medium weight calf. The fit is what you're after, though: skinny and cropped. A size 42 (equivalent to an SLP 44) should be a good fit. You can get one for under $500 used on Rakuten / Yahoo auctions through a proxy. Try searching "lad musician ライダース"

Here's what on Rakuten right now for under $500, in fact:

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/jumblestore/jr2320610201269/

They fit like this on skinny dudes:

 

Wow, thanks for the quick reply! I don't mind the material as much as the fit so I am definitely watching over this. I have pretty broad shoulders though, shoulder to shoulder seam on most of my jackets are about 17 inches. Would I still fit a Lad Musician size 42? or should I get a size 44 ( I think?). Since the shoulder measurement is about 16.5 on the jacket - just wondering if it'd stretch a little.


Edited by coldknife - 10/20/14 at 1:12pm
post #12264 of 16654

So now that it looks like a lot of people are jumping ship from TOJ... What are some alternatives for lamb fashion jackets in the ~$1000 price range?

post #12265 of 16654

Edit: wrong thread


Edited by chenm0416 - 10/21/14 at 10:05pm
post #12266 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Leather especially and craftsman are graded. First selection of materials goes to places like Hermes. They get first pick and what's left goes into what's the top tier for everybody else. They probably have an exacting standard and buy all that meet that standard to even out production numbers in years where the number of hides that meet their standards is on the low side.

As for craftsman... people at the height of their craft probably mostly end up at those houses, because they have the skills/standards/tradition and appreciation to further grow, recognize and reward that kind of skill. It's also why the NFL has and hones the best video cameraman in the world
.

I appreciate your points but its a bit too simple imo. Just because Hermes gets the best of the best doesnt mean there are no other good materials or craftsmen out there. Hence, i find that explanation a bit too simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Everything you wrote is just an appeal to authority, which isn't actually discussing what quality means in a substantive way.

I've talked to a lot of craftsmen, and TBH, even they don't give very good answers for what quality means. Exception maybe being shoes, but for everything else, it's pretty fuzzy. Which kind of makes sense, cause you're working with things that are closer to an art form than a science (at least when it comes to the kind of stuff we're talking about). If you were to ask a chef what makes the best dish, he would probably give you the same fuzzy answers. Best ingredients, attention to detail, skill developed for decades, blah blah blah.

We're running around in circles here. My points are:

  • People are often unable to define quality. Even the people who make this stuff. I find it hard to believe then that consumers can make such fine distinctions between two similar brands.
  • Quality is subjective. The guys who like Rick Owens and Buzz Rickson couldn't give two shits about what Hermes deems as higher or lower quality. Those are not the types of skins and constructions they're looking for. If you were to make a vintage repro A2 or a blistered lamb jacket using the methods that Hermes uses, it would be rightly considered a worse jacket than what BR and RO produce.
  • Even to grade skins, Hermes has to come up with a subjective lists of qualities that they consider to be desirable. That's determined by what they're trying to produce -- it's not a list of things handed down from God.


Really, thank God quality isn't so easily reducible and scientific. Clothing would be a huge effing bore if it was.

Agreed going in circles.
post #12267 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

Just because Hermes gets the best of the best doesnt mean there are no other good materials or craftsmen out there.

But with Hermes you might get a bonus feature and have a jacket that smells like high quality marijuana. This may come in handy at some point. nod[1].gif
post #12268 of 16654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid Nickels View Post

But with Hermes you might get a bonus feature and have a jacket that smells like high quality marijuana. This may come in handy at some point. nod[1].gif

LOL, sure if i want to get backstage to some concert...
post #12269 of 16654

SLP L01 classic biker

post #12270 of 16654

What happened to the pictures in this post?

 

http://www.styleforum.net/t/71625/leather-jackets-post-pictures-of-the-best-youve-seen-owned/12105#post_7423374

 

I'm kinda curious at what it looks like but somehow the pictures aren't displaying. for me.

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