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Beginning Lifting, Two Dumb Questions

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
Thanks for reading, I appreciate your taking the time.

My goal is to overcome my endomorphism - as much as is possible - by building up muscle mass and thereby increasing my basal metabolism.

So I've been lifting, but I don't feel like shit afterwards, and I think that's got to be a good indicator that I'm not doing it right. I'm keen to work hard for gains - but, despite working to failure, I don't afterwards feel that I've ripped up much, which I take as a bad sign.

So my first question is, am I right about that? If so, what's the likely problem? In any case, here's what I do:

I start with machine-assisted pull-ups and dips, with the counter-weights set so that I work to failure at 5-8 reps. Afterwards, I'll strengthen my back, abs, pecs and neck with the appropriate machines, again aiming for failure at 5-8 reps. I've got a bad left knee, so I don't use the leg machines; instead, I'll just get on the elliptical and set the resistance high, and take care of my aerobics at the same time with about 30 minutes of HIIT. I'd sprint for HIIT, but, again, that bad knee, plus I've chronic shin splints.

And that makes the second question: is this the best way I could be going at it? I'm sure it can't be, since I've no clue what I'm doing. Is there much to gain by ditching the machines and going freeweights for everything?

Thanks again.
post #2 of 14
First off, there's no such thing as an endo (endos are just fat, and once they're not fat they find out whether they're closer to ectos or mesos), and trying to pigeonhole the varieties of body types into 3 general categories is widely considered pretty stupid at this point. Sensitivity to insulin is probably a better measuring stick, but even then there aren't really "tiers" of people. You have to understand things like your carbohydrate sensitivity for yourself, over time. You don't necessarily need to feel like shit after every workout. I certainly don't, and most people I know who've never exactly been accused of taking it light in the gym aren't entirely beat after lifting. You need to get off machines (assisted dips are fine [although eventually you want to get off machines for dips and chins/pullups], but I'm talking about Nautilus-type equipment) at some point. Your "pecs" should be hit doing bench presses, decline and incline, dumbbell and barbell, they should be hit doing standing cable work, they should be hit doing dips. Your shoulders should be hit doing sitting shoulder presses if your knees can't take standing presses (not on machines, with free weights, dumbbell or barbell), shrugs, etc. There are a multitude of reasons to switch off machines that have an artificial track for the exercise, although unfortunately I cannot recall each and every one of them since I just got off a graveyard shift and my brain is pretty much broken right now. Suffice to say that the recruitment of stabilizers inevitably results in increased efficiency in everything (cns, faster strength gains, faster lean mass gains), in more calories burned, in muscle asymmetries being addressed, in allowing your body to follow natural motions determined by fairly individual-specific attributes like femur length. I'm not sure what "machines" you use to strengthen your back, and presumably you cannot do deadlifts or bent over rows due to knee issues (and squats, and most olympic lifts), but I'd wonder if you could do something like t-bar rows where the bar itself is mostly stationary and you can put more of the weight on the good leg. You should also try to work in hyperextensions if good mornings and similar exercises are something you can't do standing. At the very least you need to be doing sitting cable rows, and I'd take a look at ergs for some of your cardio work if you're looking for a low impact activity that should result in significant muscle recruitment. As for ab work, you're going to get better results out of doing exercises that require heavy abdominal recruitment for stabilization than you are out of machines. Weighted glute-ham raises, even the dips and pull-ups/chins you're doing are beneficial. If you want direct ab work, look away from machines and look to hanging leg raises, captain chair leg raises, incline situps, jack-knifes and v-ups. Anything ab exercise that requires you do more with your body without support is going to be more beneficial than some machine track/assisted ab exercise. I'll assume you have your diet mostly squared away, but if you don't... Even the best programs can't overcome a shitty diet.
post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 
Stellar post, Eidolon, thanks a million. Everything you've written sounds insightful and incredibly helpful - but I haven't a clue what most of it really means in terms of exercise and application. I'll copy-and-paste the individual exercises that you mention and take them with me to the gym, ask the staff to show me how they're done properly. It's clear from what you've written that the machines are wasting my time, so I'm through with them.

I don't eat junk and haven't for years - but I do eat well, and I'd really prefer to work it off instead of cut back on it. Not many sweets, not too much beer - but a goodly amount of meat red, white and dark, olive oil, coconut milk, fruits, rices and the like. Natural stuff, all - but substantial in calories, obviously.

I don't take protein whey, I don't think it's necessary in my case - but I am considering supplementing with creatine.

Thanks again.
post #4 of 14
http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html Most of the exercises I've mentioned should be listed there. If you can get in touch with someone who has a background in powerlifting or training athletes you should get a few training sessions from them, in my experience they're the best at form corrections. With your injuries you also might want to try and find someone with a background in mobility work to take a look at you, how you move during certain lifts, and some of your injuries. Finding someone with an NSCA-CSCS (Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist) certification would probably be your best criteria for knowing whether or not a trainer has any idea what they're talking about (but, obviously, not everyone that has a CSCS is a great trainer). You could also try and pick up a book like Starting Strength (which is pretty cheap), as it's something most of the better trainers I've met use as a reference for teaching beginners form (you can teach yourself, for the most part, solid form on major lifts with it). I'd definitely consider supplementing protein powder, and maybe even replacing one meal with a basic protein shake. Something like ON double rich chocolate is a quick 110-120 calories with 25g of protein if you mix it up with a few ounces of water (not really a protein shake, but good for a little bit of "munchy" replacement). You can down it and you end up tasting almost nothing. I'm also a big proponent of greens+ supplements because I personally tend to not have a lot of opportunities to get as many vegetables in my diet as I'd like. You may want to consider hitting up a Borders and browsing through a book like John Berardi's The Metabolism Advantage, which is roughly a distillation of his Precision Nutrition system. The Abs Diet (an unfortunate name) and a few other diet books are good primers, and good to use as references. You never know you have a really bad habit until you come across some information that surprises you, and while your diet may be solid you should at the very least browse some sources to make sure you're not doing anything unintentionally stupid. Diet is a pretty intricate issue, and most of the "common sense" information out there is dead wrong.
post #5 of 14
You already have rcv'd great advice. I just want to caution you that not all gym staff members have adequate knowledge - especially with free weights. In fact, I have visited gyms where activities like deadlifts were banned.

When I started out almost 15 years ago my best learning points came from watching experienced lifters who looked like I wanted to look. If you are respectful and don't overstay your welcome the experienced guys generally will give up a few seconds in between sets to explain what they are doing. Those same lifters saved my back a few times too by interrupting my first attempts at squats and deadlifts to show me where my form was screwed up.

Good luck - let us know how you are doing or if you have questions on specific lifts. There are a few trainers that seem very knowledgeable on this forum.
post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr T View Post
When I started out almost 15 years ago my best learning points came from watching experienced lifters who looked like I wanted to look. If you are respectful and don't overstay your welcome the experienced guys generally will give up a few seconds in between sets to explain what they are doing. Those same lifters saved my back a few times too by interrupting my first attempts at squats and deadlifts to show me where my form was screwed up.
I think you're lucky then. It's my experience that most guys in the gym who look good look good despite their knowledge rather than because of it. Many of them have superior genetics and can look good and grow big no matter what they do. This isn't always true, of course, but IMO it is more often than it isn't. I've seen way too much shitty form and stupidity in the gym from some of the best looking guys in the gym e.g. having their heels on plates while squatting, rounding out their backs, jerking weights, etc. I'm always reminded of the bum I used to see all the time eating out of the trash. He was "buffer" than most athletes and guys I'd see in the gym. He wasn't particularly huge bit I actually envied his body.
post #7 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbie View Post
I think you're lucky then. It's my experience that most guys in the gym who look good look good despite their knowledge rather than because of it. Many of them have superior genetics and can look good and grow big no matter what they do. This isn't always true, of course, but IMO it is more often than it isn't. I've seen way too much shitty form and stupidity in the gym from some of the best looking guys in the gym e.g. having their heels on plates while squatting, rounding out their backs, jerking weights, etc.

I'm always reminded of the bum I used to see all the time eating out of the trash. He was "buffer" than most athletes and guys I'd see in the gym. He wasn't particularly huge bit I actually envied his body.

Good point. You really have to be selective from who you seek advice. Just this morning I watched a father and son squatting with three plates and only going down about 2 inches for a couple of reps. I imagine one or both will soon be your patient.
post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 
Yes, thanks for bringing that up. I'll study the exercises that you've mentioned online, through text and video, then go in ready myself. I've gotten a bit of silly advice from the staff before, so I think it's better not to leave too much up to them. Even keeping my posture as straight as possible, I can't stay long on the rowing machine before my back gives, so it's particularly important that I employ good form.
post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr T View Post
Good point. You really have to be selective from who you seek advice.
Unfortunately for someone new to weightlifting they have no idea how to be selective. This book by Stuart McRobert is one of the best I've seen on exercise technique: http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Tell-...5883242&sr=8-4 There are others, of course, but I really liked this one. He's very big on injury prevention and safe form. [edit] Ooops, looks like that's a not-yet-released updated version. This is the one I was referring to: http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Tell-...5883242&sr=8-5 [/edit]
Quote:
Just this morning I watched a father and son squatting with three plates and only going down about 2 inches for a couple of reps. I imagine one or both will soon be your patient.
Won't be mine but sadly people like this keep the orthopedists busy.
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Oh, I can't believe I forgot to mention this, it's obviously important:

I lift once a week, on Mondays, also doing HIIT aerobics. Tuesday I rest completely, don't do anything apart from a few lesiurely walks. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, I again do HIIT aerobics. Saturday and Sunday are same as Tuesday.

I've read of some people lifting three times a week, but I've also read you've got to give the muscles time to rebuild fully or you're just delaying your development. Should I lift more than once a week?
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by RatherAnOddball View Post
Oh, I can't believe I forgot to mention this, it's obviously important: I lift once a week, on Mondays, also doing HIIT aerobics. Tuesday I rest completely, don't do anything apart from a few lesiurely walks. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, I again do HIIT aerobics. Saturday and Sunday are same as Tuesday. I've read of some people lifting three times a week, but I've also read you've got to give the muscles time to rebuild fully or you're just delaying your development. Should I lift more than once a week?
Yes. 3x a week full-body or 4x a week splits are probably the most common program layouts, but you don't have to stick to that. Either cut back on HIIT (4x a week high intensity interval work is more than most would do), or drop to two off-days (I'd recommend doing both). Don't overestimate the time you need to recover (especially if you start supplementing in more protein and creatine), don't underestimate just how rare it is for someone with a solid diet and scheduled off-time (a week off every couple of months) to really, physiologically over-train.
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by eidolon View Post
You need to get off machines.

OP, if you're going to take one think away from this guy's post, it should be this.
post #13 of 14
Machines are bad, mmkay?
You have to choose between "ripping" yourself and getting bigger. Really you need to focus on one end or the other, too hard to split the difference. Spend six months lifting heavy - wide grip deadlifts, squats and dips/bench/overhead press. Drink whole milk, eat whole grain oatmeal and eggs for breakfast, and cut out the aerobics/HIT stuff. Get lots of rest and check back at the end of the six months. You'll be heavier and bulkier, and ready for losing some weight, but you'll have a lot more muscle and strength. Good luck!
post #14 of 14
Yeh stick to compound exercises, good diet and plenty of rest and water.
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