Tuxedo Shirt

hopkins_student · Dec 1, 2004

Not that I'm in the market, just curious about what kind of shirt you prefer for wearing with a black dinner jacket.

Spread collar or wing collar?
Pique texture or pleated front?
French placket or hidden placket?
Any other details?

I think if I needed one I would purchase a spread collar, pique textured shirt with a french placket.

johnnynorman3 · Dec 1, 2004

Spread collar; french placket; plain front -- I would want a regular shirt. Personally, I prefer the look of thick MOPs to studs.

tiger02 · Dec 1, 2004

Depends on the occasion, I'm generally in Dress Blues instead of a tux these days, but I stray a bit from the uniform look with a spread collar and french cuffs. Also generally the only guy in the room who tied his own bow tie

I've been wondering for a while though about the formal shirt that Marlon Brando wears at the beginning of the first Godfather movie, at his daughter's wedding. Hidden placket and...the front of the shirt looks stiff, or formed. In a good way. Is that how a pique front looks? I don't get a good enough picture to see the texture. Tom

tiger02 · Dec 1, 2004

Can't find a really good shot of how it lies, but it's this one: Tux shot 1 Tux shot 2

Horace · Dec 1, 2004

Right now I think I would like a plain point or semi-spread with small pleats.

When I was home for Thanksgiving, I re-found an AKCO shirt I got in new in London in the 80s. Â Pique front and cuffs [single cuffs], and a Mastocraft plain point collar that is detachable. Â Can't recall where the collar studs went. I've grown out of it; my strongest memory is the front stud digging into my neck at that last prom.

15''/38cm neck, 33 sleeve, coming soon to an ebay web page near you.

Does anyone still wear these?

I have one of those shirts made by Brooks. single cuffs, pique front, and detachable collar, from Brooks, the "Hamilton" model (I don't know which English firm makes them for Brooks). I believe the single cuffs are more formal than french, as the single cuff shirt is most properly worn with white-tie, if NY Society shin-digs of old are any indication.

The Brando shirt front appears to be a pique "bib" front with detachable collar.

as to the original quesiton, I prefer a french cuff with turndown collar and pleated front, though I am inclined to try plain or pique front with the turndown collar.

ViroBono · Dec 1, 2004

I wear, with Mess Dress, a marcella shirt with standard collar. I also have a collarless marcella stiff-fronted shirt, which gives me the choice of standard or wing collar to wear with my dinner jacket. At our Battle of Britain dinner in September, we had the option of wearing 1940s evening dress, so I wore the wing collar. Both shirts use studs, and mine are silver, to match the buttons and collar dogs on my Mess kit. I have a very nice set of Edwardian gold studs for wear with dinner jacket. At the cuffs, I wear either 1920s silver engine-turned links, silver Service crested links or gold versions of the same. Tiger 02 - In the British military, tying one's own tie is de rigeur. wearing a ready-made tie invites ridicule from other Mess members and the attention of the PMC, who will usually levy a stiff Port fine. It is also quite common for the offending items to be burnt in front of the assembled diners. The pique shirt to which you refer is marcella (sometimes called a golfball shirt), which is standard wear with Mess dress. They can be starched to give the stiff appearance. Spray starch is enough usually, but for very formal occasions the laundry can make the front almost rigid. The Royal Navy have two styles of shirt - soft-fronted and stiff-fronted - the first is worn with black waistcoat, the latter with white.

tiger02 · Dec 1, 2004

ViroBono,
Thanks for the info, I'm jealous of your options for dress and the fact that those around you understand each option. Â I wear the French cuffs because they're different and seen as "classier," even if they are less formal. Â I'm hoping to get to the Officer's Ball in Vienna late January; I expect a good many men will have a more sophisticated understanding of that which they wear.

Tom (dreaming of the sight of a bonfire piled high with clip-on bow ties)

clarinetplayer · Dec 1, 2004

Tiger 02 - In the British military, tying one's own tie is de rigeur. wearing a ready-made tie invites ridicule .

I would never wear a ready made bow tie purely for moral reasons. Â But, also for a practical reason. Â I usually wear my tux when I conduct. Â If I wore a ready made bow, I would be in constant, mortal fear of the thing coming apart during a performance.

Drinkwaters · Dec 1, 2004

I've always held that the in etiquette of formal wear, one should only wear a wing collar when wearing tails. Have I been misled or is this correct?

Horace · Dec 2, 2004

The pique shirt to which you refer is marcella (sometimes called a golfball shirt), which is standard wear with Mess dress. Â They can be starched to give the stiff appearance. Â Spray starch is enough usually, but for very formal occasions the laundry can make the front almost rigid.

Good man,

what about "sizing" rather than starch? I've heard that the best laundries prefer the former to the latter. I thought they were synonomous, but apparently not.

H

ViroBono · Dec 2, 2004

I suspect you are right, and that size is used instead of starch. Whatever it is, last time they did my collar I dare not move my head for fear of cutting my throat, it was so stiff.

My naval colleagues report that the legendary onboard Chinese laundries (recently got rid of by our useless govt) were capable of making the entire shirt so stiff it could be stood up by itself.

Drink8648 is correct in saying that strictly speaking wing collars should only be worn with tails (according to Debrett, anyway), but I think the whole thing has become very diluted now and wing collars are as acceptable with black tie today as they were until the mid to late 50s.

The cuffs issue is interesting. There is no question that a dress shirt should invariably be worn with cufflinks, but many of the older-fashioned shirts have a single rather than a double (french) cuff. Both are correct.

Tiger02 - In mess dress there are sometimes options, but they have to be approved by the President of the Mess Committee (or the CO) for each function. For example, for a Summer Ball white mess jackets may be worn (if held), or cummerbund rather than waistcoat if it is hot. At normal Dining-In nights there may be an option (RN and RAF), to wear unit cummerbunds. Burns' Night usually presents an opportunity to wear Highland Dress in lieu of mess kit, but whilst the RN allow kilts with mess jacket and waistcoat, the Army doesn't allow mixed dress. The RAF sometimes allow it, (though strictly it's agin the rules), the only people allowed to wear a kilt being members of the Scottish RAF Regiment squadron.

Horace · Dec 2, 2004

I suspect you are right, and that size is used instead of starch. Whatever it is, last time they did my collar I dare not move my head for fear of cutting my throat, it was so stiff. Â

My naval colleagues report that the legendary onboard Chinese laundries (recently got rid of by our useless govt) were capable of making the entire shirt so stiff it could be stood up by itself.

Drink8648 is correct in saying that strictly speaking wing collars should only be worn with tails (according to Debrett, anyway), but I think the whole thing has become very diluted now and wing collars are as acceptable with black tie today as they were until the mid to late 50s. Â

The cuffs issue is interesting. Â There is no question that a dress shirt should invariably be worn with cufflinks, but many of the older-fashioned shirts have a single rather than a double (french) cuff. Â Both are correct.

Tiger02 - In mess dress there are sometimes options, but they have to be approved by the President of the Mess Committee (or the CO) for each function. Â For example, for a Summer Ball white mess jackets may be worn (if held), or cummerbund rather than waistcoat if it is hot. Â At normal Dining-In nights there may be an option (RN and RAF), to wear unit cummerbunds. Â Burns' Night usually presents an opportunity to wear Highland Dress in lieu of mess kit, but whilst the RN allow kilts with mess jacket and waistcoat, the Army doesn't allow mixed dress. Â The RAF sometimes allow it, (though strictly it's agin the rules), the only people allowed to wear a kilt being members of the Scottish RAF Regiment squadron.

Fascinating and informative posts, thank you very much.

Say, do any of you boys wear, in the older style, a cummerbund that actually wraps several times around the waist?

I don't know if these are made anymore, but if they are, I am sure that the British still have them, as well, as possible Chipp II in NYC.

ViroBono · Dec 2, 2004

I have never seen a 'wraparound' cummerbund, though I have seen many worn upside down (i.e. with the openings in the pleats facing downwards); they seem to go with the ready-made bow ties and lurid viscose waistcoats.

One example of dress shirts not so far mentioned is that sometimes worn with Highland Dress, and consists of a collarless shirt (often with bishop sleeves), and a lace jabot. This looks splendid with a kilt and Prince Charlie jacket. Another Scottish variation, worn with a standard dress shirt, is trews, a form of close fitted tartan trousers.

Alexander Kabbaz · Dec 2, 2004

The cuffs issue is interesting. There is no question that a dress shirt should invariably be worn with cufflinks, but many of the older-fashioned shirts have a single rather than a double (french) cuff. Both are correct.

Pardon me? I beg to differ. The higher the style, the less correct the French cuff. If you are referring to a dress shirt for white tie, French cuffs are absolutely incorrect. (according to Post) the only acceptable option is the single link cuff.

but I think the whole thing has become very diluted now and wing collars are as acceptable with black tie today as they were until the mid to late 50s.

Sadly, you are quite correct. Now, Virobono, let's have it out. I've been under the impression for more than a quarter century that Mr. Leyendecker drew exclusively for me. And what say thee in thy defense?

ViroBono · Dec 3, 2004

Alexander In re cuffs, I was referring to cuffs worn with black tie when saying that either single or french are correct, or at least acceptable at any but the most formal of events. Â As to Leyendecker, surely he should have as wide an audience as possible, particularly amongst the sartorially splendid?

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