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Pacers-Pistons brawl - Page 3

post #31 of 42
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(Leo Jay @ 22 Nov. 2004, 11:36) Well, given that everyone pretty much gets to the sports arenas by car, I don't know how responsible it is for them to be selling beer to begin with.  But there's far too much brewery money flowing into the coffers of the various professional sports leagues for anything to ever be done about that.
No offence, Leo Jay, but I think this is ridiculous. Irresponsible to sell alcohol to people who MAY be operating a car? That would pretty much wipe out all alcohol consumption in the United States. And alcohol is not sold entirely because of "brewery money flowing into the coffers...." It's part of human culture.
Not "MAY be operating a car", in the vast majority of instances, they WILL be operating a car. We're not talking about the corner bar or a controlled private party, where a bartender or host is likely to assess you and cut you off when appropriate -- it's an uncontrolled environment where young, inexperienced concession workers are servicing a large volume of customers and can't reasonably be expected to make those kinds of judgements or handle the inevitable confrontations that will ensue. If a drunken fan is looking for a showdown with a 6' 7'' 200+ lb. player he dislikes, what's he going to do to the scrawny college student who tries to tell him he can't have another beer? I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm just saying it's irresponsible. That has nothing to do with the player's choice to confront the fan. That's a separate issue.
post #32 of 42
Thread Starter 
What a shock: the guy who threw the beer at Artest, escalating the brawl, has a criminal record.
post #33 of 42
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Not "MAY be operating a car", in the vast majority of instances, they WILL be operating a car.  ... If a drunken fan is looking for a showdown with a 6' 7'' 200+ lb. player he dislikes, what's he going to do to the scrawny college student who tries to tell him he can't have another beer? I'm not saying it should be illegal.  I'm just saying it's irresponsible.  That has nothing to do with the player's choice to confront the fan.  That's a separate issue.
I disagree about this driving point, as people tend to carpool to sporting events because of the cost associated (have you parked at a game recently?). I think we would agree though that the solution is in responsible service. They shouldn't serve to the final whistle, but do something like baseball where they cut it off at the 7th or 8th inning, and should perhaps cut down on in-seat service. And if a fan is violent or disruptive to a concession employee, they should be thrown out, end of story.
post #34 of 42
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....Brian SD, I'm with you in that Artest's reaction is understandable from a certain standpoint, but if a client came into my office and threw a beer at me and I punched him, I'd be fired. It's difficult to compare situations; this one is pretty unique.
Jackass or not, the one thing to keep in mind here is this point, I will relate it in other terms: The fans are the customer, the players the employees of the firm....every customer has the right to boo, heckle, etc the fans for the bucks they spend....with that note in mind the players should be severly punished for the actions taken in respect to the brawl-ball that has been recently a trend in the NBA as well as other sports, even in the case of a thrown beer, which, keep in mind really other than getting the man stinking wet, hurt noone, he should have allowed the security to take care of the man, which would have been done, and the riot would never have occured...now I love the sight of a grown man getting the s**t kicked out of him like everyone else, but I go to an Arena with a ring in the middle of it to see that...what we have now is a bunch of over paid, over egotized millionaires that have never had money and do not know what the difference in class, and low-class is, therefore they still have an animal like ghetto mentality that I do not want to go into. Keep in mind, any of us that would have done the same to any customer would have without a doubt lost our job and had a very hard time finding anither job with the reference, these guys just go to another team and make more money. AN EXAMPLE NEEDS TO BE MADE.
post #35 of 42
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....Brian SD, I'm with you in that Artest's reaction is understandable from a certain standpoint, but if a client came into my office and threw a beer at me and I punched him, I'd be fired. It's difficult to compare situations; this one is pretty unique.
Jackass or not, the one thing to keep in mind here is this point, I will relate it in other terms: The fans are the customer, the players the employees of the firm....every customer has the right to boo, heckle, etc the fans for the bucks they spend....with that note in mind the players should be severly punished for the actions taken in respect to the brawl-ball that has been recently a trend in the NBA as well as other sports, even in the case of a thrown beer, which, keep in mind really other than getting the man stinking wet, hurt noone, he should have allowed the security to take care of the man, which would have been done, and the riot would never have occured...now I love the sight of a grown man getting the s**t kicked out of him like everyone else, but I go to an Arena with a ring in the middle of it to see that...what we have now is a bunch of over paid, over egotized millionaires that have never had money and do not know what the difference in class, and low-class is, therefore they still have an animal like ghetto mentality that I do not want to go into. Keep in mind, any of us that would have done the same to any customer would have without a doubt lost our job and had a very hard time finding anither job with the reference, these guys just go to another team and make more money. AN EXAMPLE NEEDS TO BE MADE.
It's interesting the way these players are constantly referred to as having a 'ghetto mentality'. I know a number of young men who were raised in 'the ghetto', and none of them practice or advocate the kind of violent, thuggish behavior often attributed to this so-called 'class' of people. At the same time, quite a few the 'upper' class (i.e. upper-middle class or wealthy) young men I attended college with would not hesitate to throw a punch at someone who deliberately provoked them by deliberately tossing a beer on them at a frat party. I suppose 'ghetto mentality' transcends 'good breeding' and a 'suitable' neighborhood.
post #36 of 42
I am not sure that your comments about "low class" and "ghetto mentality" are accurate. I know many people (myself included) who are in the lowest class bracket in the country and do not take kindly to rich folk blindly making judgements about our character based on our finances (or lack thereof). I don't know where you get off thinking that poor people do not behave in as classy a fashion as rich people do. The most respectable, coolest and classiest people I have ever met are (surprise.) not rich at all. Leo Jay is right here, it's got nothing to do with how much money you have. Ever been to a restaurant and seen some yuppie couple practically crying because they can't get a window seat, then returning the food to the kitchen because it's not exactly what they ordered? Hardly gentleman like.
post #37 of 42
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....do not take kindly to rich folk blindly making judgements about our character based on our finances (or lack thereof). I don't know where you get off thinking that poor people do not behave in as classy a fashion as rich people do. The most respectable, coolest and classiest people I have ever met are (surprise.) not rich at all.
One, I wish I could put myself in the RICH folks catagorey....2, money and class do not have to run in the same circles, however class is what is learned and attributed by rearing from the parents...the case being made, not that having money buys class, but rather that having money cannot buy class, but lifts some individuals to believe they are entitled to it...most of the players creating the havoc in sports had no class before they began playing sports, and were never taught how to present themselves with class now that they have the money, in understanding that, noone is by any imagination trying to say poor people have not got, never had, nor ever will attain a class to them, on the contrary, many less fortunate people have got more class than a lot of wealthier people I know, but they learned it from better upbring from their parents, as I said previously, not from the street...the funniest thing about the whole basket-brawl debate is the opposite stance the different aged groups in the forum take..the older obviously wiser people seem to think the punishment fit, however the younger maybe less wise people seem to think he was just protecting himself and taken advantage of...go and do the same thing he has done, and see where you end, the word most likely would begin with a J, explain why Attest has not been arrested for assault, when he clearly punched the wrong man, yet the man throwing a harmless cup, he has been arrested.
post #38 of 42
post #39 of 42
drizz, that is really wrong, people will sell anything for a buck, huh?
post #40 of 42
Yeah, I think $99,999,999 is a bit much for that though
post #41 of 42
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(Brian SD @ 24 Nov. 2004, 1:14) ....do not take kindly to rich folk blindly making judgements about our character based on our finances (or lack thereof). I don't know where you get off thinking that poor people do not behave in as classy a fashion as rich people do. The most respectable, coolest and classiest people I have ever met are (surprise.) not rich at all.
One, I wish I could put myself in the RICH folks catagorey....2, money and class do not have to run in the same circles, however class is what is learned and attributed by rearing from the parents...the case being made, not that having money buys class, but rather that having money cannot buy class, but lifts some individuals to believe they are entitled to it...most of the players creating the havoc in sports had no class before they began playing sports, and were never taught how to present themselves with class now that they have the money, in understanding that, noone is by any imagination trying to say poor people have not got, never had, nor ever will attain a class to them, on the contrary, many less fortunate people have got more class than a lot of wealthier people I know, but they learned it from better upbring from their parents, as I said previously, not from the street...the funniest thing about the whole basket-brawl debate is the opposite stance the different aged groups in the forum take..the older obviously wiser people seem to think the punishment fit, however the younger maybe less wise people seem to think he was just protecting himself and taken advantage of...go and do the same thing he has done, and see where you end, the word most likely would begin with a J, explain why Attest has not been arrested for assault, when he clearly punched the wrong man, yet the man throwing a harmless cup, he has been arrested.
An assumption you make is that because a person has money, they are required to act a certain way, to "learn class," as you put it. My expectations of people for acceptal behavior is in no way related to the amount of money they have.
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but they learned it from better upbring from their parents, as I said previously, not from the street...
You cannot assume that just because they made a violent outburst that they grew up by themself on the street. I grew up in the whitest of lillywhite suburbia, and I am still susceptible to angry outbursts (although like everyone else I'm sure, they are suppressed to the best of my ability). A guy can only take so much.
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the older obviously wiser people seem to think the punishment fit, however the younger maybe less wise people seem to think he was just protecting himself and taken advantage of...
There's blanket statement #2. This is simply not the case here. I (probably the youngest member of this debate) did not once say that he didn't deserve the punishment. Who knows exactly what was going through Artest's mind at that point? I doubt after the fouling, and the fight that never really happened, he was probably having a very hard time thinking straight at all. I simply am saying that I would be extremely pissed off if I was in the same situation as Artest. I think he absolutely deserves punishment. His actions are reprehensible beyond doubt. However, I think the guy who threw the beer on him deserves a good old fashioned assbeating.
post #42 of 42
I am truly over this, you just don't get it.
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