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great leaders, who are your favorites? - Page 4

post #46 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by onion View Post
Lincoln was in no way a great President as the history books would have you believe. He had some very very big flaws in his Presidency, but since no one was alive back then no one bitches. They say it's human nature to think the past was better than it actually was, good or bad, and I think that's the case with Lincoln.

Wow. I've totally change my opinion based on absolutely no facts presented whatsoever. Thank you for enlightening all of us. Lincoln succeeded in achieving the great strategic objective of his day. How's your day going so far?

Great Liberal Lies:
1. Great = Perfect; Shit = Imperfect; There is nothing in between
2. Trashing Greatness = Enlightened thought
post #47 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
Wow. I've totally change my opinion based on absolutely no facts presented whatsoever. Thank you for enlightening all of us. Lincoln succeeded in achieving the great strategic objective of his day. How's your day going so far?
I achieved the great strategic objective of a solid bowel movement this evening. I am greater than Abraham Lincoln.
post #48 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
Wow. I've totally change my opinion based on absolutely no facts presented whatsoever. Thank you for enlightening all of us. Lincoln succeeded in achieving the great strategic objective of his day. How's your day going so far?

Well let's see what else happened while 'succeeding in achieving his great strategic objective'

-He suspended the writ of habeas corpus for one
-He used this suspension to throw people in jail with no trial for BS
-Controlled the media during war by shutting down newspapers, and prevented them from using the mail. He also took control of the telegraph lines.
-He had no intention of ending slavery except when he realized it would help his cause
-He broke treaties with Indians, then killed them, then put a bounty on the ones he didn't get
-He didn't even like blacks to begin with, many say he was a flat out racist
-His idea to unify the US was to destroy the South entirely
-Many experts say he was all but forced into signing the Emancipation Proclamation, because of radicals in his party not his morality, though he still carefully worded it so it only effected the south

I'll leave you with a quote from the Star in 1863:

Quote:
There is no act of tyranny more odious than that which strikes at the liberty of the press"”the freedom of thought and speech... for all time to come, history will point back to the reign of Abraham Lincoln, as having displayed a timidity most ludicrous, a terror most abject, a despotism most foul and hideous, a tyranny utterly regardless of all moral considerations, trampling under foot all the guarantees of a written Constitution, which he solemnly swore before God and the world, to maintain, revere, and support.
post #49 of 208
Everyone on the planet who thinks Lincoln was a great President and who was just educated by onion that Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus please stand up. No one? I guess that means that not everyone on the planet sets the standard of greatness at perfection...except you apparently.

Did Lincoln achieve the principal strategic objective of his presidency? Yes. Did his thoughts evolve over time? Yes. Is your analysis of most of the other items one sided and does it omit other significant relevancies such as the evolution of his thought during his presidency? WITHOUT QUESTION!

Here are some of my favs from your post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by onion View Post
-He didn't even like blacks to begin with, many say he was a flat out racist.
Yet was very close friends with Fredrick Douglas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onion View Post
-His idea to unify the US was to destroy the South entirely.
This is a lie. His proposal was complete forgiveness of the South. Andrew Johnson was the proponent of Reconstruction and destructive policies that followed the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onion View Post
-Many experts who are predisposed to hate Lincoln and aren't above making shit upsay he was all but forced into signing the Emancipation Proclamation, because of radicals in his party not his morality, though he still carefully worded it so it only effected the south.
Fixed

Call me when you've achieve ANYTHING of note or when you've done a small bit of your own thinking and we'll talk again. Bubye!
post #50 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by onion View Post
Well let's see what else happened while 'succeeding in achieving his great strategic objective'

Wikipedia says he sexually harassed his bodyguard.
post #51 of 208
of course im not being serious. i was thinking of the 2nd tier of most horrible people on the planet, after hitler and stalin et al
post #52 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeskali View Post
of course im not being serious. i was thinking of the 2nd tier of most horrible people on the planet, after hitler and stalin et al
I liked how you made the thread fairly interesting.

Next up:

Witnessing: "Mark from Plano" and "Onion" duke it out over whether or not Lincoln was a good leader.
post #53 of 208
Hu Jintao seems like a good leader.
post #54 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark from Plano View Post
Did Lincoln achieve the principal strategic objective of his presidency?
I don't want to enter your argulent, but that's not really a valid point here, it needs much more development. Achieving a strategic objective does not, in itself, make a leader great. You also have to decide how important and valid the objective was (and how much of a driving force the leader was in achieving the objective).

Also, it is slightly ridiculous to use of the tired old "critic is easy but art difficult" line.
post #55 of 208
with respect to lincoln, the bottom line is that you cant coherently argue that he was a bad man because his accomplishments are enormous and quantifiable, whereas any negativity attached to him is conjecture and unprovable written by people who are relying on 150 yr old heresay.
post #56 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post
It also doesn't mean that he was not an effective ruler in other ways. Even Tacitus will concede that he administered laws quite fairly, did much to extend road networks, repair infrastructure, keep up the grain supply, etc. And although he was a bit of a spendthrift, who can blame him for being a patron of the arts? :P
Anyway, I only put him in to rile conne, but he's not as bad as he's made out to be.
I don't think Nero was "bad" - I simply can't see him as an effective leader. He never seemed to put his heart into politics, always running off from his duties. Even if the Roman historians during Nero's time were biased against him, even from his actions there is still a sense that he wasn't really made to be a politician.

You take someone like Augustus/Octavianus, who put his heart and soul into politics, then compare him with Nero, and it's a completely different picture.
post #57 of 208
The Yellow Emperor

Chuck D
post #58 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Étienne View Post
I don't want to enter your argulent, but that's not really a valid point here, it needs much more development. Achieving a strategic objective does not, in itself, make a leader great. You also have to decide how important and valid the objective was (and how much of a driving force the leader was in achieving the objective).

Thanks professor. I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that even the least initiated were aware that Lincoln won a war, saved a union and abolished slavery in slightly over 4 years, getting himself assassinated in the process. Apparently I overestimated the common sense on this board.

Sorry. I'll try not to make that mistake again.
post #59 of 208
Atilla the Hun. If he'd leaved today he would've wore VASS.
post #60 of 208
Marcus Aurelius.

Jon.
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