or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread - Page 494

post #7396 of 12233
Serious question: What is the point of the double-faced cloths? Just a neat thing to have?
post #7397 of 12233
Reversible garments?
post #7398 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by badsha View Post




Tell me more
post #7399 of 12233
It would be cool if you have your jackets buggy lined.
post #7400 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

one pair only. Wore it more or less once a week for 3-4 (5 at most) months a year.

 

Was it magic flannel?!  That seems outstanding.  I don't wear a flannel suit in my regular rotation (yet!), but my flannel odd trousers have certainly not fared this well. 

post #7401 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRINI View Post

Tell me more

Trini I believe this particular one is over coating. I can check the weight later today.
post #7402 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

Serious question: What is the point of the double-faced cloths? Just a neat thing to have?

Not sure if this is the historical precedent, but I do know that during post-war cloth shortages, tailored garments were often "turned-out." A "turn-out" was when a tailor, to save on cloth, would literally take apart the sleeves, collar, pockets, front, everything he could. Then he would lay the cloth flat and turn it over, re-making the suit on the "wrong side" of the cloth.

No chance a tailor would do that today, but I have to assume measures like that had to impact the manufacturing of fabrics. And it's likely, while the circumstances have changed, the producer's methods have not. Good way to get two suits in one, so to speak.

(source)
Edited by bourbonbasted - 9/27/13 at 6:30am
post #7403 of 12233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balfour View Post

Was it magic flannel?!  That seems outstanding.  I don't wear a flannel suit in my regular rotation (yet!), but my flannel odd trousers have certainly not fared this well. 
part of it was that I didn't care about ordinary wear. But it got to a point where it was beyond "patina" and starting to look "homeless"
post #7404 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbonbasted View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarbutch View Post

Serious question: What is the point of the double-faced cloths? Just a neat thing to have?

Not sure if this is the historical precedent, but I do know that during post-war cloth shortages, tailored garments were often "turned-out." A "turn-out" was when a tailor, to save on cloth, would literally take apart the sleeves, collar, pockets, front, everything he could. Then he would lay the cloth flat and turn it over, re-making the suit on the "wrong side" of the cloth.

No chance a tailor would do that today, but I have to assume measures like that had to impact the manufacturing of fabrics. And it's likely, while the circumstances have changed, the producer's methods have not. Good way to get two suits in one, so to speak.

(source)

Interesting. So, at this point it's basically just a neat thing (nothing wrong with that, of course)?
post #7405 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbonbasted View Post


Not sure if this is the historical precedent, but I do know that during post-war cloth shortages, tailored garments were often "turned-out." A "turn-out" was when a tailor, to save on cloth, would literally take apart the sleeves, collar, pockets, front, everything he could. Then he would lay the cloth flat and turn it over, re-making the suit on the "wrong side" of the cloth.

No chance a tailor would do that today, but I have to assume measures like that had to impact the manufacturing of fabrics. And it's likely, while the circumstances have changed, the producer's methods have not. Good way to get two suits in one, so to speak.

(source)

 

I don't know if this is the origin of this either, but my grandfather would have his old police uniform turned when he was getting a new one.  You would always know as the breast pocket would then be on the opposite side.  It might be looked down on as well by others, an old neighbour of mine remembers the practice and talked of someone he knew being a bit cheap because they always had their suits turned.

 

Its probably more to do with the cost of manufactured goods relative to labour and wages.  Nowadays cloth takes up at the most 20% of the price of a suit, its possible that this would have been the reverse in the past.  For those of you who've read The Ginger Man by JP Dunleavy there's a passage at the end where the main character is revelling in the luxury of a new Donegal tweed suit and says it cost 5 guineas a yard.  The 3 yards for a suit would have cost three weeks pay, which gives some context for the price of cloth relative to the making up.  

post #7406 of 12233
There was a time when "turning" was a fairly common skill. Even in his prime (1920s and 1930s), Babe Ruth took pride in turning the collars on his Sulka shirts. Obviously, he'd learned this in the Baltimore orphanage when he was a kid.
post #7407 of 12233

So much amazing knowledge and varied experiences of fabrics that it boggles my mind. Especially Fresco and its Open Weave/ Smoother / Rougher - Summer Family of Fabrics. 

 

I wish we had a more structured Wiki / Guide created out of it. I'll try to see what I can put together with all these knowledge quotes. Any suggestions where I could build it? On the forum or offsite?

 

PS: I did not know how to put in a Spoiler before. I just inserted it. 


SPOILER DETAILS: Collection of quotes on Summer Suit Fabrics. 
 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

Sharkskin, nailheads, hopsacks and etc can fit the bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zbromer View Post

Harrisons Frontier is 300 grams. Compared to fresco, it is softer and smoother, has a less open weave, and has less variegation and mottling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

It seems that darker colors it is more apparent so that logic makes sense to me. Maybe I should stick to 16oz fresco for the wintertime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRINI View Post

Gents, some advice requested on future commissions. I currently have the following made up:

Spring/Summer:

Fresco 516 SB 3 patch suit
Fresco 520 DB 2 patch suit
Fresco 511 SB suit
Fresco 512 SB suit
Brown Wool-Linen gunclub SB 3 patch sportcoat
Navy wool-cash hopsack 3 patch blazer


Fall/Winter

Navy herringbone SB worsted (approx 11-13oz) suit
Charcoal flannel SB suit
AFB Minnis Flannel DB suit
P&H Thornproof Navy Donegal SB 3 patch suit
Brown Gunclub wool-cash SB 3 patch sportcoat


I'd like to get a gray flannel DB suit next but after that - what else? I feel like I've pretty much covered off the basics. I'd like to get a tan herringbone suit for the summer in a wool/linen blend but I'm looking for suggestions/recommendations for other commissions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertie View Post


[/SPOILER]

Some ideas:
 
  • Tobacco linen suit for summer.
  • Linen/silk/wool blend summer jacket in big POW (similar to LL Lee Marvin)
  • Mid-grey POW flannel suit for winter
  • Olive Donegal suit for winter

Maybe also consider chalk-striped flannel if you think it fits your style?
Quote:
Originally Posted by obama View Post

Thanks for all the advices. These serve as a good starting point for my search. To elaborate more, I am planning a project for a DB casual SC. Was initially eyeing on Fresco but it's solid feel still not casual enough for my like. I also looked ar some Harrisson Mirage, which is casual but looks too shiny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinsth View Post

Anyone else have any experience/views on whether a fresco mixed with 30% mohair (like the Minnis 0577) wears warmer than an all fresco fabric?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolecho View Post

It wears a tad cooler probably due to the mohair content, but it is significantly pricklier especially on the trousers if you do them unlined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

One would usually know about an interview a bit in advance and be able to plan one's outfit accordingly, right? Just have a grey worsted that you wear for interviews. Of course if this is a practical "I want a flannel suit but really should have a navy suit that I can wear in winter at some point" voice rearing its ugly head sort of thing, maybe try something in a 13-16 ounce navy wosted depending on your heat tolerance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I want to get a navy flannel suit, but something tells me I should get something a bit more vanilla right now as the only truly navy suit I have is a fresco 8/9oz for the summer, and a more rakish peaked lapeled thing. I love flannel so much, but I constantly worry about having to be in a formal setting like an interview and not being totally appropriate. I might be over thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concordia View Post

Look in the Finmeresco book. There are a few that come close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinsth View Post

^ Thanks. Too bad that none of the all frescos come in the same mid-blue color as the 0577. I suppose I will go for the 0520, even though I would have loved it to be of a somewhat lighter hue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

0520 is a great color, I don't have a suit made up in it, but will probably do so next summer
Quote:
Originally Posted by obama View Post

Thanks vodking for the link. In the FB page, it is said combined luxury and comfort. But I am actually looking for casual and more surface texture. Even the minnis Fresco 520 looks not casual enough for the purpose. Hope someone can share some real life experience maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewi View Post

Interesting. I don't know where Kai is, but there's no way I could wear silk as a summer fabric, even in the evenings, here in Atlanta. Unless the occasion was entirely indoors and air conditioned, I'd sweat through it quite quickly, I would think. Of course, I'm the guy that can wear fresco as a year round fabric, so take that with a grain of salt.

The colour of it made me think it would work well for autumn, as well as the warmth factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by add911_11 View Post

In Hong Kong, I believe one should have suitings for the really hot days in the summer and the windy breezy weather in the winter.

I prefer kid mohair mix and fresco 9-10oz for summer, and stuff like English town classics and heavy flannel for winter.

Above by ET sums up very nicely. You may also get a mid weight overcoat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

Summer: Under 9oz. (Fresco, Lesser Super Tropical, Rangoon, Linen)
Early Summer / Winter, Spring / Fall: 11oz.- 13oz. (Lesser, Blue Riband, Botany, Dugdale Royal Classic)
Winter: Mainly flannels and saxonys (13oz. and above - Fox, Marling & Evans, Minnis). A lot of tweed sportcoats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

In the summer here in NYC I wear 8/9 and 10oz Fresco. I have some 8oz plain weave as well. I have a few 4 season suits that are in the 11-12oz range. The winter I wear things over 14oz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by obama View Post

Thanks for your advice 911.

May I ask specially what is the weight you are wearing for 4 seasons?
Summer: 8-9oz fresco?
Winter; ?? Oz flannel 9or ?? Oz worsted wool? Maybe?
Spring/ autumn: ??

Sorry I am completely noob and just want to have a starting point.

Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by add911_11 View Post

I believe thats a bad idea. It is better to have a fresco weave from JJ Minnis or Smith Woolens for the Spring/Summer, and a good flannel or heavy wool worsted for Autumn/Winter.

It is good to have stuff specific for the season, rather than looking for 3 season fabrics. They are usually not cool enough for HK's summer, and too thin and breathable for HK's winter.

However, I must say that heavy fabrics have limited usage in Hong Kong, but it does not mean you don't need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by obama View Post

Hi Fishball, since I am also in Hong Kong and admire the stiffer English fabric, which maintain the shape better, could you advise the weight of jacketing you recommend for 4 seasons in Hong Kong? I am trying to go for nicer fabric that will not melt me in aummer. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badsha View Post

Wait there are two different weights for each Fresco color, i.e. 0520 will be 250/280gms range OR 280/310gms?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lachyzee View Post

No.There are usually similar colours in each weight range, but they aren't exactly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

I'd never get fresco pants lined - really defeats the purpose IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by lachyzee View Post

Second question: what kind of lining options do you guys go with in relation to Minnis Fresco?

I am tossing up whether to get something in the 250/280gms range, or the 280/310gms range.

I have read that, obviously, the lighter one wears cooler, but has some drape problems. That, though, was contradicted by Manton & ors a few pages ago.

I have also heard that they can be somewhat see-through - if I go for a half-lining, would a lighter colour be better?

In terms of pants - lined or unlined?

Interestingly, it seems that the 280/310gms range actually has a looser weave than the tighter, finer 250/280gm range, and is actually more see-through than the lighter weight cloth:

(280/310gm is on the right)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachyzee View Post

Speaking of Huddersfield, I'm thinking of ordering something from them in H7214. Unfortunately they won't send me any swatches. Anyone happen to have this swatch IRL, or have seen it IRL? Just want to know if the colour on the site is accurate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jebarne View Post
 

The have a couple cashmere blend 8.5 oz "fresco" fabrics for only 20pounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jebarne View Post
 

+1 on Huddersfield.

 

I'm into order number 4 for lightweight suits with fabric I ordered from them.

 

Every week I get their specials and about every 3rd one I order something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

You can source minnis for less than retail, ll not so much
 

 

Quoted Spoiler Two: 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Anyone have both the 516 and 520 frescos? I'm wondering if they're different enough to justify getting both. I currently have the 520 being made into a SC, and need to pick a fabric (for a different tailoring house) for another SC I've already paid for.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by forex View Post


I have both and yes, they are different.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton View Post


I have them both with the 520 as a patch pocket blazer suit and the 516 as a flap pocket suit.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Thanks. I'll just go ahead and order the 516 then as another summer sport coat.

I originally wanted the 518 for a dark brown summer jacket, but my tailor says he thinks it's too dark. The swatch is still coming to me, but in the meantime, maybe we can try to organize another re-run of the Slewfoot fresco? There was some interest last time, but not enough.

If we did a re-run, I'd like to get something slightly less red, but am also open to ideas.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by forex View Post

DW,
I like 516 more than 520, I'm sure you will like it although I don't think it's a summer fabric.
How many meters do we need to make the brown happen and how short are we?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

I believe your tailor is right about 518, too dark, I would be in for 4m of slewfresco, but I don't know if there is enough interest as everyone already cashed in on the first run

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I'd be happy to organize it, but won't be able to for at least another month. Just really busy right now. From memory, I think we were something like 15 or 20m short, but I have to check my notes again. It's been a while.

Perhaps I can hit up this board again in a month, when I can really put in the work to organize something. We'll make one hard effort for a push, and hopefully reach enough orders.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emptym View Post

D, I have a blazersuit in the 0518 and I wear the jacket separately all the time. Did on Tues. One of my favorite jackets. I also have 0520. Don't have 0516, but I have a similar dark navy Smiths finmeresco, and I get a lot of use from all three.

I'd get the dark brown if I were you. Would go well w/ your complexion imo. And it looks great w/ light gray or off-white pants and shirts in solid white or blue and blue or red checks/stripes. It even pairs well w/ gray or worn blue jeans.

Then I'd get a dark navy blazer suit. It'd be ideal to have blazersuits in all three, but if you won't wear suits often, as I don't, and only wanted a suit in one of the three, dark navy would be best imho.
 

 

SPOILER 2: 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

Looking for suggestions for a true dead-of-summer fabric, in a light grey/blue mix... Maybe slate blue is the best way to describe it. Fresco 0520 comes close, but is a bit darker than what I'm looking for. It will be for a DB suit.

I have had good luck with Fresco and 8 oz. Lesser in the past but while those crooks are not in front of me, I didn't see something like I was describing in there (but I may have missed it.) I know the Lesser Golden Bale has some 7-8 oz. offerings as well but haven't looked through it carefully yet.

I tend to get overloaded when I look through multiple swatch books, and like to have an idea of what I'm looking for beforehand, so any advice is appreciated.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerC View Post

True dead of summer? Linen, I'd say. Otherwise, check out Lesser swatches on the Harrison website. They're quite true to colour.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

Sorry, should have specified - no linen (looking for something more formal) or mohair (too scratchy).

Maybe something like this, though it is more grey than blue/grey :

http://lindenway.tumblr.com/post/62316939906/neoretrostreetstyle-beppe-modenese-style

I have a SB suit in fresco 0501 - I love the color but didn't want the same fabric in different styles. Seems too... OCD.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

Ha, maybe so...

Lesser 31426 may fit the bill (8 oz. book). Still not a true grey/blue though.

http://www.harrisonsofedinburgh.com/public/images/collections/hlesser/306/31426.jpg

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickman View Post

The LL had a run of a blue/grey POW but I don't know if anyone is willing to sell their length. I would look at smiths finmeresco book, they have a lot more colors to choose from than minnis. If you want a dead of summer fabric, DB jacket might be a bit warm. I would not overthink this and either do a darker shade of grey than 501 or 520. I believe scabal makes a superlight 7oz fresco cloth for rubinacci, maybe you can get your hands on some from scabal, might require a little extra digging

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post

The Holland and Sherry Cool Breeze book includes a grayish blue. More like a slate blue. A high twist panama. 7/8 oz., so great for summer. I wish Minnis would do a small run of 7/8 oz. Fresco, but that's another post for another day.

The Holland and Sherry Cape Horn HighTwist (panama) book includes a few blue-gray shades. 8 oz. Super 100's.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post

The H&S Cool Breeze is a simple, straightforward panama. Probably a 'super' 80's or maybe 90's. Spongy, porous, and sturdy. I am not the biggest H&S fan, but, in this case, for a very basic workhorse summer panama, it's just fine. There's a dark (not charcoal) shade in that book that I like a lot.

I received some information a while back--that the Hardy/Minnis/H&W powers-that-be have explored the possibility of a 7/8 oz. Fresco. Which, for those late July/early August days here on the East Coast, would be most welcome. But, alas, we'll see.

Halstead Explorer is a superb 8 oz. panama. It doesn't receive as much attention as it deserves. I think there's a blue-gray in that book.

Back to H&S: The Cape Horn HighTwist book is a bit more polished that the Cool Breeze. Only a 1/2 ounce heavier, and 100's. A different finish, smoother to the touch. Still, a basic wear-a-lot summer panama.

I've petitioned for a lighter weight version of H&S Crispaire. I feel sure if they included a small run (a few solids and basic stripes) of 8/9 oz. Crispaire in the book, it would sell well. Crispaire is great for what it is but there's no way it's a mid-summer Manhattan cloth. I have 10/11 oz. panamas that are more porous.

One can easily imagine a blue-grey in a lighter weight version. So many kinds of potentially great cloth.
 

Edited by XFactor - 10/5/13 at 1:11am
post #7408 of 12233
Please don't do that.
post #7409 of 12233
Quote:
Originally Posted by aravenel View Post

Please don't do that.
+10
post #7410 of 12233
What are you guys referring to? The long series of quotes?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread