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Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread - Page 1257

post #18841 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanComposition View Post

Palmisciano and Arrigo, who incidentally cut, sew, and finish themselves.

Oooohh. That's really bad. Have you ever considered asking them to outousrce some of those tasks? There is a long, storied British tradition as to how to make a suit the "right" way, and it involves outsourcing the work to recent immigrants.
post #18842 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post


Maybe you should leave your rtw world and come into bespoke. Then it will make sense for you


We clearly haven't met.

post #18843 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post

Maybe you should leave your rtw world and come into bespoke. Then it will make sense for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy57 View Post

A fitting for a "shooting jacket" with Steed today in London:


post #18844 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post


Maybe you should leave your rtw world and come into bespoke. Then it will make sense for you


So you've been a member for 2+ years, posting on this thread, and don't know that @Andy57 gets lots of his stuff made?

post #18845 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhereNext View Post


So you've been a member for 2+ years, posting on this thread, and don't know that @Andy57
gets lots of his stuff made?

I just don't care. I was replying to the rudeness of his comment. Given that he his such an expert he should give me an advice how things are done in UK, express his valuable opinion and be friendly. I think that's the purpose of this forums.

Regards
post #18846 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post


I just don't care. I was replying to the rudeness of his comment. Given that he his such an expert he should give me an advice how things are done in UK, express his valuable opinion and be friendly. I think that's the purpose of this forums.

Regards

Troll? Its so hard to tell these days...

post #18847 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post


I just don't care. I was replying to the rudeness of his comment. Given that he his such an expert he should give me an advice how things are done in UK, express his valuable opinion and be friendly. I think that's the purpose of this forums.

Regards


You think I was rude?

 

You did receive plenty of advice about how tailoring houses work, especially in London, and how the work is divided between the cutter, who is the key person in the process, and the jacket-makers, trouser-makers, and other artisans who assemble the clothes. The cutter is the person who measures the customer, strikes the pattern, and cuts the cloth. The tailor or tailors are often not even on the premises.

 

The advice you received was that the cutter is the key person and the person with whom your relationship is paramount. You do not need to worry whether or not the tailor is present. It comes down, in the end, to the fact that the bespoke houses, whether in London or elsewhere, know what they are doing and know far better how to make clothes for you than you do. The way the make clothes for you is a process refined over decades.

 

You made the assertion that the cutter and tailor ought both be present at fittings:

 

"For a proper bespoke i think that's essential",

 

Leaving aside a discussion of what, exactly, "proper bespoke" is, you may think that is essential that the tailor(s) is or are present at fittings, but you are not correct in thinking that. It is demonstrably not essential. Your assertion makes no sense.

 

It is, however, your money, and you spend it however you see fit. If you wish to look for, and patronize, a firm where the cutter is also the tailor or where the tailors are present at your fittings, go right ahead. Be aware, at least, that you have considerably narrowed your range of choices and you may not end up with a product as good as you might think it would be. Or perhaps it will be.

post #18848 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post


I just don't care. I was replying to the rudeness of his comment. Given that he his such an expert he should give me an advice how things are done in UK, express his valuable opinion and be friendly. I think that's the purpose of this forums.

Regards

Got it.

post #18849 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippet View Post

I just don't care. I was replying to the rudeness of his comment. Given that he his such an expert he should give me an advice how things are done in UK, express his valuable opinion and be friendly. I think that's the purpose of this forums.

Regards

Probably best not to combat one poster's perceived rudeness with a blatantly twatty response.
post #18850 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy57 View Post


You think I was rude?

You did receive plenty of advice about how tailoring houses work, especially in London, and how the work is divided between the cutter, who is the key person in the process, and the jacket-makers, trouser-makers, and other artisans who assemble the clothes. The cutter is the person who measures the customer, strikes the pattern, and cuts the cloth. The tailor or tailors are often not even on the premises.

The advice you received was that the cutter is the key person and the person with whom your relationship is paramount. You do not need to worry whether or not the tailor is present. It comes down, in the end, to the fact that the bespoke houses, whether in London or elsewhere, know what they are doing and know far better how to make clothes for you than you do. The way the make clothes for you is a process refined over decades.

You made the assertion that the cutter and tailor ought both be present at fittings:

"For a proper bespoke i think that's essential",

Leaving aside a discussion of what, exactly, "proper bespoke" is, you may think that is essential that the tailor(s) is or are present at fittings, but you are not correct in thinking that. It is demonstrably not essential. Your assertion makes no sense.

It is, however, your money, and you spend it however you see fit. If you wish to look for, and patronize, a firm where the cutter is also the tailor or where the tailors are present at your fittings, go right ahead. Be aware, at least, that you have considerably narrowed your range of choices and you may not end up with a product as good as you might think it would be. Or perhaps it will be.

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I exagerated with "essential" but I do believe it's beneficial that the tailor spends few minutes with the client. I trust in the UK it's like you say. Different than Italy or France.
The word bespoke is used way too many times and inappropriately in general.
post #18851 of 19898

We've established that there may be a fringe scenario where the cutter is also the sewer, in effect creating a semantic issue where the sewer is, by virtue of being the same person, inadvertently at your fitting. The fact that there will be some synergy of process in the mind of the person performing the task notwithstanding, we can assume that they are wearing their tailor hat at this stage, not their sewer hat. So this would be like having a one-man operation where the tailor also sweeps the floors and saying that you require the janitor present at your fittings.

 

Which leads to the next question, is there ever a scenario where the sewers (the ones who sew, not the subterranean ninja turtle zone) emerge from the dungeons and are present at the fitting, excepting cases where they have no front office and are working together out of an RV? Isn't the whole point of patternmaking as a science so as to build these instructions intentionally into the pieces and avoid scenarios like, "OK, Tom, you see Mr. McGillicuddy here? He's fat, so I want you to sew nice and easy and loose right here, where his flank and rump sit. <pats rump>"

post #18852 of 19898

Whippet, don't be discouraged. You are on to something that I believe is significant.

Tailor shops operate in different ways in different countries and according to how big (workers and output) the shop is . The cutter/tailor set up is one way of handling a volume of production.   As far as I know, and I don't really know,  the way the English handle the process is unique to the UK.

If the cutter does not understand the effect of how sewing changes the cutting or the tailor doesn't grasp the reasoning/nuance of the cutting there can exist a conflict of ideas and methods. There is a significant difference in what each is doing with the cloth.

Cutter is dealing with a flat paper pattern and is working in one dimension. The tailor is modifying the cloth by sewing of darts, seams, etc and shaping (shrinking and stretching) with an iron creating a 3 dimensional form. These techniques alter the cloth from the original cutting/pattern.  

This is why I say it doesn't matter how dialed in your pattern is, it's what happens after the cloth is cut that matters.

This fact requires the cutter to know the effect of tailoring and the tailor needs to know how and why the cutting is done to synchronize the methodology of both. 

I cut and sew and I cut and sew using different techniques for each body type. Sometimes I will do a quick baste to see if the cutting will properly translate  the effects of the sewing. If not I have to adjust the cutting so the effect of the tailoring work is reflected and actualized in the result.  Every so often I will put a garment together myself to analyze the cutting. 

It is a marriage of cutting and sewing. The garment has to finish at the proper measurements to fit a client and provide consistency. The cloth changes through the sewing process enough to deviate from the original cutting and you need to monitor the changes.

 

The advantage I have at a fitting or at cutting is I understand the relationship and effects of tailoring to cutting and can integrate the two. I won't engage an adjustment at the fitting that I know the workmanship will account for. This is why I don't care for the English system. 

 

As a side note, everyone in my shop knows pattern making, cutting, fitting and sewing. Creates a checks and balance between us. Everyone in the shop has also owned their own business. 

 

As far as getting all this at a lower price; that's a tough one.  I would rather make 5 suits a week at 6000.00 than 10 suits per week at 3000.00. Allows me to spend more time with clients and time spent on each suit. 

Know tailors who prefer the volume at lower prices and I don't want their problems this creates. I like my problems! 

 

Another thing about fittings. I try to observe the fitting for a prolonged time and have the client sit, move, reach, walk to see if/how the clothes fit. Clothing has to have a kinetic nature and that should be built into the suit. Static fittings in front of a mirror don't reveal much. 

post #18853 of 19898
^ I'd like to believe you, Depos, since you are a professional bespoke tailor. But many of the people saying that Whippet is completely clueless have significantly more posts on styleforum than you. Isn't that the highest form of expertise (outside of having a blog, of course)?
post #18854 of 19898

Yes you are correct and you have to question my credibility as I do not have a website either.

 

Have to correct one thing.  Custom tailor not bespoke tailor

post #18855 of 19898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despos View Post

Have to correct one thing.  Custom tailor not bespoke tailor

My mistake. Would be interested to hear you explain why you use custom rather than bespoke, and what the difference is. Ive always thought of those terms as interchangeable.
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