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Shaq Gets Traded to the Suns - Page 5

post #61 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by landho View Post
For all of Marion's attribute's, and I'll say it again, he's just a glorified Udonis Haslem. Do you think the Magic would be better with Marion rather than Turkoglu? I say no way.
I cannot let this stand. Udonis was/is a fortunate starter with the Heat, Marion is a 4-time All-Star. Scores garbage points at 6'7", is the best rebounding SF I can think of, can shoot the 3, gets steals and blocks (again, at 6' 7"), can guard Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, and Tim Duncan in the same game. And he's a big-time athlete and is great in transition. They are not in the same conversation. Turkoglu shoots better from downtown and gets more assists (the ball goes through him more often, Marion's assist-to-turnover ratio is actually better), that is it. Defensively, it's not even close, and Marion gives up 3".
post #62 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian278 View Post
I cannot let this stand. Udonis was/is a fortunate starter with the Heat, Marion is a 4-time All-Star. Scores garbage points at 6'7", is the best rebounding SF I can think of, can shoot the 3, gets steals and blocks (again, at 6' 7"), can guard Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, and Tim Duncan in the same game. And he's a big-time athlete and is great in transition. They are not in the same conversation.

Turkoglu shoots better from downtown and gets more assists (the ball goes through him more often, Marion's assist-to-turnover ratio is actually better), that is it. Defensively, it's not even close, and Marion gives up 3".

But not do a very good job though. I can count on one hand the number of players who possess lateral quickness (for Parker) or strength (for TD) and the necessary defensive awareness to contain either of them.

Yeah, I don't get the Hedo>Shawn argument either. The problem with Shawn Marion IMO though, is that for all his athletic prowesses and magnificient stats, the guy can NOT consistent create plays to save his life. Dwayne Wade needs much more help than that.
post #63 of 119
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whacked View Post
Yeah, I don't get the Hedo>Shawn argument either. The problem with Shawn Marion IMO though, is that for all his athletic prowesses and magnificient stats, the guy can NOT consistent create plays to save his life. Dwayne Wade needs much more help than that.

Pretty much my entire argument.

I'll let the Turkoglu discussion sit, though, but I may bring it up again in a few months!
post #64 of 119
Marion was an All star caliber player before Nash went to Phoenix, the idea that Turkuglu is better than him, which one successful season under his belt, is odd.

Sheed for Marion would have been interesting and gave then tools that would have made them formidable against the Spurs.
post #65 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeirpont View Post
Marion was an All star caliber player before Nash went to Phoenix, the idea that Turkuglu is better than him, which one successful season under his belt, is odd.

Sheed for Marion would have been interesting and gave then tools that would have made them formidable against the Spurs.

Sheed...Turnaround jumper on the baseline.I'm a Spurs fan, and I think that trade would have put them over the top, more so than Shaq.
post #66 of 119
Thread Starter 
To clarify: I'm not saying that Turkoglu is "better" than Marion; I'm saying that I'd rather have him than Marion on my team. Turkoglu is the type of player that you can exploit in order to win games, but Marion is not. I think you should let your playmakers make plays, and I don't think Marion is a playmaker.

Calling Marion a glorified Udonis Haslem was a bit polemical, but I feel as if the analogy is very valid. Let's pose this question: How much better is Shawn Marion than Tayshaun Prince? I don't think Marion's almost twice as good as Prince, but that's how much he is getting paid.

Agree that Rasheed would be great for the Suns, but there is no reason for the Pistons to pick up Marion, not when Rasheed presents so many matchup problems.
post #67 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by landho View Post
Let's pose this question: How much better is Shawn Marion than Tayshaun Prince? I don't think Marion's almost twice as good as Prince, but that's how much he is getting paid.

Agree that Rasheed would be great for the Suns, but there is no reason for the Pistons to pick up Marion, not when Rasheed presents so many matchup problems.

Well, I think Prince is awfully good. At least, he is when he's not being made to look foolish by Lebron in the playoffs because Rasheed's idiocy has created fatal confusion about what defense they're supposed to be playing.
post #68 of 119
People overrate being able to create on your own too much. Just because the nba tells us that's how you play basketball doesn't mean it's how it is. Marion doesn't get iso and then take his man to the basket. He doesn't need to. He gets 20ppg off of hustling and being athletic. Turk isn't that good, guys. What makes you think that he's a good rebounder? Have you watched magic games the past few years? I see at least 2 a week and he's below average at best. He's not bruce bowen, but he's also not remotely good at defense. I mean, he can play defense in the same way i can throw a football. I mean, i know what i'm doing and am relatively accurate but no one is going to confuse me with someone who is good. Turk isn't too big for most sfs because he never uses his size. He doesn't post people up but merely puts his back to the defender and fades away from 18 ft. He's also really soft on both sides of the ball. He's a spot shooter who occasionally pump fakes and takes a 15 foot leaner. He's like dirk without the boarding, defense (dirk's defense has been good the past 2 seasons), aggresiveness and ability to make tough shots around the baskets. No offense, landho but i don't think you actually watch a lot of turkoglu games but more like what he possibly could have done with his career. I mean, in theory he's amazing. A 6'10 guy who can shoot, stretch the court and should be able to use that size for mismatches on bigs (quickness) or smalls (size) seems unstoppable. He's not though. He's an above average player in a system that works perfect for guys like him. He's no where near as good as dirk, marion, prince or other similar big small forwards. Turk can create his own shot, yea, but he offers you NOTHING in any other aspect of the game. Marion is 10000x more valuable to any team in the league. There are a ton of guys in the league like turk who can shoot and occasionally take their man off the dribble in isolation. Considering that's basically all the NBA is these days, it's not a very rare skill to find. That said, the league needs more guys like marion and less soft bigs who think they're guards like turk. There are a million turk clones out there considering he's just a poor man's healthy Peja. Sheed for marion would've been really interesting. Sheed seems like he'd have a blast in the suns offense and helping amare man down the middle. Can you imagine how much he'd free up the lane for amare by stretching the court with his shooting? Plus, they could've used his quick, rangy post defense moreso than the slow, plodding shaq D.
post #69 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoaug View Post
There are a ton of guys in the league like turk who can shoot and occasionally take their man off the dribble in isolation. Considering that's basically all the NBA is these days, it's not a very rare skill to find.
Except that's NOT Hedo Turkoglu. You forgot the ability to score from the post and create defensive mismatch on every possession. There's a reason a Bargani or Durant type is drafted no lower than #5 pick every year - NBA executives are perpetually looking for the next Dirk.

Oh, as for abundance of playmakers in today's NBA, please tell that to Lebron James(on most occasions), Dwayne Wade(this season), or (till now) Kobe Bryants, superstars who have to carry teams by themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoaug
Sheed for marion would've been really interesting. Sheed seems like he'd have a blast in the suns offense and helping amare man down the middle. Can you imagine how much he'd free up the lane for amare by stretching the court with his shooting? Plus, they could've used his quick, rangy post defense moreso than the slow, plodding shaq D.
If Isiah Thomas was the Pistons' GM, may be.
post #70 of 119
To all those who think this trade is terrible for the Suns: Were you alive in the 80s, when the Showtime Lakers were winning titles with an aging and immobile Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?
post #71 of 119
Turk doesn't post people up. Where did that myth start? He could potentially create mismatches if he actually used his size for more than 15 foot fadeaways but alas. Not only is he soft on the block, but he doesn't have post moves like the other guys listed so i don't blame turk for not posting up. I mean, turk is at the point in his career where he knows his strengths and weaknesses and sticks to the things he's best at. I like turk as a player, but i don't like people thinking he's amazing all of a sudden because he's putting up good numbers. He's playing pretty much the same as last season but more consistent which is great, but he's not this unstoppable force that people think he has become. He puts up nice box scores this season, but he's not overly impressive watching him in person or on tv. I'm serious, he never uses 3 of his inches which i would put to great use over here. He's a good player, but some of you are just wayyyy too caught up in the moment. People should really come to some magic games with me. Only $10 and you get to sit with all the real fans in the top row where you can touch the ceiling. As far as the shaq trade again: I still can't get over it. I mean, i'd like to think that the suns have to know what they're doing and that they wouldn't make the trade if it wasn't going to work. But nba gms don't really have a great track record with things like this. And for the heat, at least they can't be worse. Plus, i think they need to give alexander johnson some more run. He's not super talented but he can make due until they get a real big man. Webber back in golden state is pretty weird too. I mean, i guess he can still pass to the perimeter but his defense, rebounding and scoring abilities are pretty diminished. I guess they can always just keep him on the bench if he starts playing like last year in the playoffs. whacked- Sometimes i think we need more gms like isiah. He's pretty terrible but at least he tries. The other side of the spectrum is maybe more infuriating. The gms who never make trades, cuts or free agent signings but just give their own players extensions they don't deserve like the sixers with willie green, dalembert and korver. GMs love their own players way too much and do just enough to make the playoffs but never a chance at a title. It keeps the owners and fans happy enough not to fire them pretty much. Bulls come to mind, magic before actually taking a flyer on rashard (they need to somehow land a solid bigman to team with dwight though), lakers before trading for pau, bucks, nets, kings, pacers, wizards and some more used to do it but have tried recently. I mean, if you're going to rebuild, do it right. Don't tie up cap room in mediocre players just because you need them to get to 30 wins. 30 wins is just as useless as 20. That's why i was happy the sonics and blazers figured it out and just started from scratch. It's already paying off for the blazers and the sonics future looks pretty solid assuming the green/durant chemistry ends up working out well.
post #72 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser View Post
To all those who think this trade is terrible for the Suns: Were you alive in the 80s, when the Showtime Lakers were winning titles with an aging and immobile Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?
Very much so, and loving every minute, though I was a kid. Who plays the role of Magic Johnson in this comparison? I have a hard time seeing Nash playing center if Shaq goes out. Just saying.
post #73 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser View Post
To all those who think this trade is terrible for the Suns: Were you alive in the 80s, when the Showtime Lakers were winning titles with an aging and immobile Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucemaster View Post
Very much so, and loving every minute, though I was a kid. Who plays the role of Magic Johnson in this comparison? I have a hard time seeing Nash playing center if Shaq goes out. Just saying.

Shaq's got no sky hook, either. I don't think it was terrible--I just can't see the Suns playing half-court or Shaq playing in a run and gun, Showtime-type offense.
post #74 of 119
RE: Saucemaster Nash is Norm Nixon. Diaw is Magic until the trade of Nash to the Clippers forces him into the primary ball-handling role.
post #75 of 119
Thread Starter 
Whacked and I are very much on the same page, I think.

As for Hedo, I will simply say (and maybe I'll elaborate later if I get some time) that the addition of Rashard did wonders for his game. Last year, who was he playing with? Tony Battie? I think his inconsistency was due more to the fact that teams could cheat off of Battie. The think with Turkoglu again is that he has a wide array of skills and is very difficult to guard because of the rare combination of his skills. I don't watch nearly as many Magic games as you, chron, but I watch what I can. (I like to scout.) He seems to move well without the ball and he scores in bunches. He may be "soft," but remember Horry, Dirk, et al. have had to deal with that label, too. Honestly, I don't want my players like Dirk, Durant, Hedo, Bargnani, et al. banging down low. I want them scoring points and wreaking havoc with the opposition's defensive schemes. Forcing the opponent to adjust to you is a huge victory, and by having Hedo and Rashard at the 3 and the 4, the Magic have done that this year.
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