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Shaq Gets Traded to the Suns - Page 3

post #31 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian278 View Post
You'd think the Suns would've gotten to the Finals at some point considering the talent they've had: Nash, two-time MVP, Amare, permanent 20-9 guy who's basically unguardable in that offense, Marion, gets you 20 and 10 and you never have to run a play for him (also the best 6-7 rebounder in the league), Joe Johnson, eventual All-star with Atlanta, Boris Diaw, most improved player, Barbosa, sixth man of the year...they just can't seem to put it together (and they only play a 7-man rotation). I think that the Suns were good enough to win a ring last year and the first year Nash was there, and they were good enough this year, they just gave up on what they had.

There are many here in town who would agree with you and argue that the only reason the Suns didn't make the Finals last year was because the refs rigged the game. I don't like to give credence to that argument, but it is interesting that the ref who made the clearly bad call in the Suns/Spurs series and caused the Suns players to come off the bench and get suspended for the following game, is the same ref who was later found to be at the center of the point-shaving scandal.

On the other hand, I think it is far to note that the Suns have had some horrible injury problems in the playoffs. The real question of course is, is this just bad luck or does the run and gun style of Coach D'Antoni cause players to break down at the end of a long season?
post #32 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradford View Post
There are many here in town who would agree with you and argue that the only reason the Suns didn't make the Finals last year was because the refs rigged the game. I don't like to give credence to that argument, but it is interesting that the ref who made the clearly bad call in the Suns/Spurs series and caused the Suns players to come off the bench and get suspended for the following game, is the same ref who was later found to be at the center of the point-shaving scandal. On the other hand, I think it is far to note that the Suns have had some horrible injury problems in the playoffs. The real question of course is, is this just bad luck or does the run and gun style of Coach D'Antoni cause players to break down at the end of a long season?
IIRC, wasn't it Horry's hard foul on Nash that caused the players to come off the bench? I'm not sure how the ref's call had anything to do with that. You could make arguments about other calls in that game, but the players who got suspended came off the bench of their own free will and they knew the rule. I don't think the style of play causes players to break down, but the fact that he favors what is almost always the shortest rotation in the NBA can't. Though I don't think they've really broken down per se either. They've gotten beat by some very good teams (Mavs, Spurs, both at their peak) and were very evenly matched with the eventual champs year until the suspensions turned the tide. Anything can happen in the playoffs. Truth be told, the Mavs team that lost to the Heat was probably the better team, but the Heat had Wade to bail them out on multiple occasions. The Suns have been good enough to win each year since Nash got there, they just haven't.
post #33 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian278 View Post
The Suns have been good enough to win each year since Nash got there, they just haven't.

I'm inclined to +1 this... or at least, they've been REALLY close.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Marion must have been making some pretty serious noise behind the scenes about his discontent with Amare and playing third fiddle.
post #34 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucemaster View Post
I'm inclined to +1 this... or at least, they've been REALLY close.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Marion must have been making some pretty serious noise behind the scenes about his discontent with Amare and playing third fiddle.

Yeah, he definitely was (and made public noise before the season began) but do you really think Shaq was the best they could've done? I mean obviously Kerr thought so, but I've heard Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, and Andre Kirilenko mentioned as other possible deals. They could've at least gotten younger and deeper and found a player that fit their style better and still played defense, or provided actual cap flexibility. There must have been 10 possible deals they could've made better than this one.
post #35 of 119
Like i said earlier, a lot of teams wanted shaq before the deadline. If it doesn't work out this year, they can probably move him again. They weren't going to resign marion anyways from what i've been reading/hearing so they might be able to get some return still.
post #36 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoaug View Post
Like i said earlier, a lot of teams wanted shaq before the deadline. If it doesn't work out this year, they can probably move him again. They weren't going to resign marion anyways from what i've been reading/hearing so they might be able to get some return still.
Good point about the ability to move Shaq next year. The Knicks, for instance (not that they would ever be intelligent enough to make this move) could package $20 mil worth of decent enough players for Shaq's $20 million expiring deal. Or the some other team that needs to rebuild and clear some space after next year. But it still wastes a year, year and a half of the Nash/Amare combo. I wonder when the last time the team with the best record in their conference traded one of their best 3 players in the middle of the season.
post #37 of 119
I don't remember the actual record at the time, but I do still remember the Pistons trading Adrian Dantley for Mark Aguirre in the middle of the '89 season... and Dantley was no slouch on the Pistons who had just lost the '88 Finals to the Lakers.
post #38 of 119
The nets and the mavs were apparently really close to getting shaq. The suns could possibly pry away diop, a vet (like stack or eddie jones), maybe terry and a 1st round pick or 2? I don't know, but i think that diop would work really really well on the suns. He's exactly what they need, an unselfish, athletic, shot blocking, rebounding presence. He's like marcus camby without the brittle body.
post #39 of 119
i think a huge point that is being lost in this is how important marion was to the suns. although he did ask for a trade in the offseason, he fit their system well. i mean tell me another player in the league who could go from guarding tony parker to yao ming, finish the fast break, hit three pointers and grab crucial rebounds.

the suns will miss marion a lot more than they think.
post #40 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar1223 View Post
i mean tell me another player in the league who could go from guarding tony parker to yao ming, finish the fast break, hit three pointers and grab crucial rebounds.
Boris Diaw, who is in fact a far superior defender.
post #41 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar1223 View Post
i think a huge point that is being lost in this is how important marion was to the suns. although he did ask for a trade in the offseason, he fit their system well. i mean tell me another player in the league who could go from guarding tony parker to yao ming, finish the fast break, hit three pointers and grab crucial rebounds.

the suns will miss marion a lot more than they think.

I would say it tells you a great deal about Marion when the morning paper here in Phoenix reports that when the trade talks first started, Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the coaching staff were immediately in favor of the move and General Manager Steve Kerr had to be convinced.

From today's Arizona Republic...
Quote:
The evolution from Suns brass committing to not trading its core and emphasizing continuity to making a shocking blockbuster trade began over the weekend, when Miami Managing Partner Micky Arison initiated the talks with his Suns counterpart, Robert Sarver. There were mixed opinions internally with the Suns, but coach Mike D'Antoni and his assistants were immediately on board with the idea while Kerr warmed to it. Sarver made the final call.
post #42 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by whacked View Post
Boris Diaw, who is in fact a far superior defender.


you think boris diaw could guard tony parker or other quick perimeter guards? diaw is def a better post defender.


i guess if the coaching staff were immediately in favor for the trade then it had to be done, that is unfortunate becuase it was really fun to watch them play basketball.
post #43 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradford View Post
I would say it tells you a great deal about Marion when the morning paper here in Phoenix reports that when the trade talks first started, Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the coaching staff were immediately in favor of the move and General Manager Steve Kerr had to be convinced.

From today's Arizona Republic...

I think that says more about Marion the malcontent than Marion the player. The guy was instrumental to their success the last few years, especially in the year Amare was out for. He's probably worth 10 wins a year for them, he was a two-time All-Star IIRC, he filled in guarding a lot of people when they lacked anyone else who could do it, and I firmly believe his absence will be noticeable. Boris Diaw, while a nice player in '05 when Amare went down, doesn't bring as much to the table as Marion, who was the ultimate 3rd player on this team---he got points and rebounds and steals and blocks and he didn't have to be the focal point, didn't have to have the ball in his hands. Too bad he wasn't satisfied with that role.

Just to reiterate everything Marion does, here's his numbers for the year (something of a down year)- 15.8 pts on 53% shooting (35% from downtown), 2.0 steals, 1.5 blocks (at 6' 7"), 2.1 assists (as he mostly finishes plays), only 1 turnover, 9.8 rebounds. There's probably only 2 or 3 players that can match what he does in all of those categories.
post #44 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian278 View Post
IIRC, wasn't it Horry's hard foul on Nash that caused the players to come off the bench? I'm not sure how the ref's call had anything to do with that.

I think that's right. The "rigging" argument -- which I don't buy into -- is (to my understanding) not so much that the refs accomplished this by an in-game call but that the league accomplished it by an overly strict interpretation of the no-leaving-the-bench rule (resulting in the suspension of Stoudemire and Diaw).
post #45 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronoaug View Post
Like i said earlier, a lot of teams wanted shaq before the deadline. If it doesn't work out this year, they can probably move him again. .

If he plays reasonably well the rest of this year that's probably true. But if not . . .
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