• Hi, I am the owner and main administrator of Styleforum. If you find the forum useful and fun, please help support it by buying through the posted links on the forum. Our main, very popular sales thread, where the latest and best sales are listed, are posted HERE

    Purchases made through some of our links earns a commission for the forum and allows us to do the work of maintaining and improving it. Finally, thanks for being a part of this community. We realize that there are many choices today on the internet, and we have all of you to thank for making Styleforum the foremost destination for discussions of menswear.
  • This site contains affiliate links for which Styleforum may be compensated.
  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

    Styleforum is supported in part by commission earning affiliate links sitewide. Please support us by using them. You may learn more here.

Law Without Suits: New Hires Flout Tradition [WSJ]

needshoehelp

Distinguished Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,150
Reaction score
3
Nice piece . . .

One of the lifestyle perks law firms increasingly offer young lawyers is the chance to dress comfortably at the office. With "business casual" as the new dress code of record, ties hang in closets and jackets await their day in court at home.

There's just one problem: It can be difficult to get young associates to shift gears and don traditional dress when the need arises. A decade after the dot-com boom made casual Friday a weeklong event, many people under 30 have never witnessed a suits-only office.

Older people have long complained about the sartorial sloppiness of the younger generation. But the divide is stark in the legal profession.

"I share the lament and disgust about the general level of associates' attire," says Tom Mills, the 60-year-old managing partner of the Washington office of Winston & Strawn LLP. "I think it's abysmal."

For young men and women, a business suit is an uncomfortable yoke to be dusted off for special occasions. "Getting up in the morning and putting on a suit is hard," says Sara Shikhman, a 26-year-old legal associate at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP in New York. She says she hasn't worn one in six months.

When associates show up at work in suits, their peers think they have a job interview, Ms. Shikhman says. "Guys don't really polish their shoes," she adds. They go for cool, rather than traditional. "They wear shoes like you might see Johnny Depp wearing to the Oscars." She recognizes that her firm's partners "definitely look more put together than associates, but they also get more sleep than the associates."

Yet in lawyering, half the battle is the posturing. Many experienced lawyers see their wardrobe as a tool to win the trust of clients, juries and judges. Legal associates who aren't sartorially prepared may not be invited along to a new-client pitch or to take a leading role in court, regardless of the office's stated "business casual" dress code.

Mr. Mills says he is partial to well-fitted Brioni suits for himself. He notes that the going rate for new associates in New York, Los Angeles and Washington is $160,000 a year -- enough to buy suits while paying down school loans. Yet all too often, associates show up at work in jeans -- attire that he doesn't condone "unless it's moving day."

When it came time to pick a point person for a plum assignment at Manatt, Phelps & Phillips recently, the New York law firm chose "a polished, professional-looking associate" over a "brilliant" and experienced associate who had been counseled, to no avail, to improve his grooming and attire, says Renee Brissette, a partner at the firm.

The firm opted for someone more presentable to the client, says Ms. Brissette. She notes that associates are often loath to believe their attire could affect assignments or promotions. "Young lawyers don't like to hear that it's anything but their intellect," says Ms. Brissette. She notes that for women, being professionally attired doesn't require a man-suited look: She has a wardrobe of Nanette Lepore suits that are unmistakably feminine without being inappropriately flirty.

Brad Tobin, 25, who is working at a midtown Manhattan law firm, says he is certain that clothes don't affect job assignments at his firm. "Not at all -- it's really based on work product," says Mr. Tobin, who is working part-time while he completes law school. He says he owns suits but doesn't bother to wear them at work.

Law firms are attempting to raise the bar. Some associates at Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft this winter received a note asking employees to change out of their snow boots after young associates began wearing their Ugg boots all day at work, says Ms. Shikhman. A Cadwalader spokeswoman says she wasn't aware that such a note had circulated.

Winston & Strawn brought in a personal shopper from a local department store last year to address associates on how to shop and dress for work. Mr. Mills says that when some associates do make an effort to dress up, they seem to base their look on Hollywood. "You get the TV-woman lawyer look with skirts 12 inches above the knee and very tight blouses," he says. "They have trouble sitting and getting into taxis."

The firm also hired etiquette consultant Gretchen Neels, a former executive recruiter, to give lectures on grooming, dress, and etiquette standards such as where to place one's napkin at dinner.

She says many members of the so-called millennial generation have never been schooled in the traditions that previous generations learned at their parents' knees. Yet these 20-somethings are still being evaluated by old-school bosses and clients. Many members of this generation not only "don't own a watch -- they've never owned a watch," says Ms. Neels. In many white-collar professions, an expensive watch signals success, while a cool cellphone or iPod, though it tells time, signals hipness.

Ms. Neels, founder of Neels & Co. in Boston, has been making the rounds at law firms, as well as law and business schools at Duke, Harvard and other universities. She hears all sorts of complaints from scandalized partners: One young attorney wears yoga pants to work. Another associate blasted out a firmwide email searching for a size-32 belt when an unanticipated court appearance required him to dress up midday.

Ms. Neels notes that business-school grads share law associates' casual sartorial attitude, and she tries to connect the dots between what they wear and how they come across. When she was coaching M.B.A. graduates at Harvard last weekend, she says only about half came in a suit. One young man showed up in cargo pants, and his cellphone rang during the interview.

"What I'm getting from you is that you're a jerk," Ms. Neels told the student as part of her feedback. "Can you see how I'd get that?"

"Yeah, I guess," he responded, she says.

Trial attorney Rosemarie Arnold says young lawyers need to learn that "courtroom drama is all about control." Ms. Arnold represented Joran van der Sloot, one of three men who were with student Natalee Holloway before she disappeared in Aruba. With courtroom appearances in mind, Ms. Arnold spends $150,000 a year on clothes, she estimates. She is partial to Gucci and Dolce & Gabbana in particular and black suits in general.

"Trying a case is like a movie," Ms. Arnold says. "Wardrobe is everything."
 

RJman

Posse Member
Dubiously Honored
Spamminator Moderator
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
19,159
Reaction score
2,087
I don't think anyone quoted in that article comes off looking good.
 

celery

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,279
Reaction score
373
So let me understand this . . .

These law firms don't have a mandatory dress code, but they want to complain about employees not wearing suits.

Leaving people to their own devices is usually full of fail.
 

Eustace Tilley

Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
6,441
Reaction score
323
Originally Posted by RJman
I don't think anyone quoted in that article comes off looking good.

Note even Rosemarie Arnold? She spends $150K on clothes and loves Gucci and D&G
 

Dewey

Distinguished Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
3,469
Reaction score
48
This is something of a cultural crisis. No one is going to get hurt, so it's nothing to hyperventilate about, but it seems like every profession is undergoing a sea change with the ongoing movement to business casual and just plain casual. Even if these 20-somethings are persuaded to dress well, the meaning of the suit and tie is becoming more and more narrowly defined.

The idea that you dress, as a professional, to project a certain superficial yet important image, is totally lost on most 20-somethings. I would say that it's like they have been living under a rock all their lives, but obviously that's not the case.

On one hand, it's encouraging that the young people do not think they live in a world where everyone makes snap judgments based on appearance.

On the other hand, it's depressing in that it suggests the young people are generally self-centered and disrespectful of the elderly. Otherwise they'd be able to put themselves in the shoes of their bosses and see things from their point of view.

Everyone caters to youth in US, and the youth know it.
 

zarathustra

Distinguished Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
2,468
Reaction score
404
As a late 20 something attorney in Manhattan (who is looking for a job btw haha). I find this hilarious. People left to their own devices will settle generally to the lowest common denominator, at least sartorially. Secretaries here complain that they cannot wear Juicy Sweatsuits to work.

That being said, while I understand that I may be a bit more obsessed about clothing, I also understand that being well dressed garners respect. If one is ambitious and has a desire to succeed, then they will (or at least should) dress well.

I find that on a day to day basis, it generally helps when dealing with others. Perhaps it is the fact that if you take pride in your appearance, you will take pride in other areas, such as your work.

I think the resistance is in part due to the entitlement that many of my peers have towards their jobs. We have been coddled into thinking that we are great and as a result a generaltion of prima donnas has been created.
 

whnay.

Distinguished Member
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
9,403
Reaction score
301
One of my analysts showed up the other day in khaki pants and a wrinkled BB shirt. We went to the ATM, took about a couple hundred and walked over to BB to fix his mistake.

He was not happy.
 

haganah

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
6,325
Reaction score
30
I find this hard to believe unless it's a rinky dink shop.

Most firms place an emphasis on culture. You don't even have to have guidelines because your people seem bred for it. I suppose the occasional black sheep gets in, but they don't do well in other areas either and tend to be short hires.
 

dah328

Distinguished Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2003
Messages
4,581
Reaction score
114
Originally Posted by whnay.
One of my analysts showed up the other day in khaki pants and a wrinkled BB shirt. We went to the ATM, took about a couple hundred and walked over to BB to fix his mistake.

He was not happy.

LOL. Thanks for helping your analyst invest his tax rebate in the US economy.
 

zarathustra

Distinguished Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
2,468
Reaction score
404
Originally Posted by haganah
I find this hard to believe unless it's a rinky dink shop.

I don't find this hard to believe at all. Seems quite the norm, esp. for guys.
 

awcollin

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
101
Reaction score
0
Speaking from my experience, I think in a way coming to work suited up everyday isn't required, but is just good for your professional experience. You might get the oppportunity to handle something on short notice that another might have gotten, except for the fact that he came in wearing khakis and a polo.
 

haganah

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
6,325
Reaction score
30
Originally Posted by zarathustra
I don't find this hard to believe at all. Seems quite the norm, esp. for guys.
I have yet to see any of my friends working at firms like Skadden and Cravath dress like this. Maybe Jacoby and Meyers or one of the places that advertises on television asking if your child has lead poisoning.
 

noVA99

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
234
Reaction score
0
would have to agree with the assessment that the younger crowd, well younger than me (I'm in my early 30's), when they think of 'dressing up' , their notion is to look 'Hollywood' a.k.a Prada as opposed to 'formal business' a.k.a Hickey Freeman or Canali.
 

TheFoo

THE FOO
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
26,710
Reaction score
9,851
Originally Posted by celery
These law firms don't have a mandatory dress code, but they want to complain about employees not wearing suits.

Yeah, it seems pretty stupid to me, too. What's worse, in actual practice associates wind up developing their own dress code anyway. They don't typically show up in cargo pants, but rather 'cool' striped shirts, black pants, and square bicycle-toe shoes. These clothes aren't particularly cheap, which leaves even less room in the budget for proper jackets and suits.
 

TheFoo

THE FOO
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
26,710
Reaction score
9,851
Originally Posted by haganah
I find this hard to believe unless it's a rinky dink shop.

Most firms place an emphasis on culture. You don't even have to have guidelines because your people seem bred for it. I suppose the occasional black sheep gets in, but they don't do well in other areas either and tend to be short hires.


I have a hard time naming a single major firm in NYC that isn't business casual. Cravath comes to mind, but business casual is the norm at nearly all the top Vault firms.

Do you even work for a law firm? Your statements are ridiculous: "people seem bred for it"? Give me a break. Law school--yes, even the good ones--aren't typically filled with aristocracy.
 

Featured Sponsor

How important is full vs half canvas to you for heavier sport jackets?

  • Definitely full canvas only

    Votes: 83 37.2%
  • Half canvas is fine

    Votes: 85 38.1%
  • Really don't care

    Votes: 23 10.3%
  • Depends on fabric

    Votes: 35 15.7%
  • Depends on price

    Votes: 36 16.1%

Forum statistics

Threads
506,334
Messages
10,588,164
Members
224,179
Latest member
Valto
Top