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Booze after workout beneficial, study says - Page 2

post #16 of 21
2/1/08 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
The calories are not important -- the lost time is. Your liver is occupied when it's processing alcohol instead of metabolizing fat or synthesizing amino acids.



If your pre-workout meal simply fuels you through your workout and the protein ends up being metabolized via gluconeogensis, you lost quite a few amino acids you might have needed. It also depends on when the protein was ingested, what serum insulin levels were like during the workout, how long the workout was, etc.

Alcohol is also not converted into carbohydrates. Alcohol is metabolized into acetate and enters the lactic acid part of the Krebs cycle, meaning it is metaboilized more like fat (or more approriately like lactic acid). Excess energy from the alcohol is converted into fat when insulin levels rise.

Arnold used to drink beer early in his workout as a post-workout meal. He was also on steroids and learned a bit more about nutrition as his career went on and stopped.

A lot of his methods were wrong...the fact that he did well during his time doesn't mean his methods should be duplicated by you. Unless, of course, you also believe penicillin to be superior to modern antibiotics and use brandy as a painkiller simply because it worked in antiquity.

Hey, we don't want any of yer fancy "˜science' here!

Seriously though, thanks for the info.

Jon.
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post #17 of 21
2/2/08 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
Alcohol is better than Tylenol, therefore alcohol is healthy for the liver... Non sequitur arguments are awesome. And no, acetaminophen is not put into Vicodin to prevent abuse by potentially killing the recipient; it's a pain reliever that works differently from hydrocodone to reduce pain. Combining both generic drugs results in a stronger pain reliever overall.

Way to put words in my mouth on that first bit. I never said that because it was less liver damaging than tylenol that it was thus healthy for the liver.

"Acetaminophen toxicity is the most common cause of acute liver failure in the United States, accounting for 39 percent of cases." (William M. Lee, New England Journal of Medicine, July 31, 2003, 349:474-485.)

10g of acetaminophen taken at once can cause liver toxicity, where it takes ~80g of potable ethanol per day for 10 years to be "high risk of developing cirrhosis". (First Principles of Gastroenterology: The Basis of Disease and an Approach to Management

I also didn't say it was the only reason acetaminophen, but it is in many ways a deterrent to some abusers. I wish I had a better source for this specific portion, but I quothe wikipedia:

"The presence of acetaminophen in hydrocodone-containing products deters many drug users from taking excessive amounts."

"In addition to being sold by itself, paracetamol may be included in the formulations of various analgesics and cold/flu remedies as a way to increase the pain-relieving properties of the medication, and sometimes in combination with opioids such as hydrocodone to deter people from using it recreationally or becoming addicted to the opioid substance." (Brecher, Edward M (1972). Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs. Boston: Little, Brown.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by why
No, alcohol is not 'healthy'. Please stop making ridiculous blanket statements. It's like saying cocaine is healthy because it works as a local anesthetic. Anything deemed as 'healthy' needs a proper dosage and use for the health benefits. Using alcohol is not 'healthy' unless in certain circumstances (e.g. non-exercising older individual with possible heart problems). I certainly wouldn't tell an athlete to begin using alcohol because it's 'healthy' for their heart, because the athlete's daily activities provide sufficient heart health and alcohol would likely have a detrimental effect.

So the studies about the anti-oxidant effects of light to moderate drinking of red wine, dark beers, and some distilled liquors are flawed, then? If so, the people in that study must be dropping like flies, then, because of their drinking's effect on the heart.

Too bad that the nerve sheath toxicity, arterial fatty acid deposits, liver damage, kidney damage, stomach damage, and poor heart health are caused by excessive chronic drinking. Not the MAXIMUM 2 glasses of any alcohol a day, and realistically more like 4 times a week, not all 7 days.

Quote:
Re-read what I wrote. I didn't go into alcohol metabolism in detail, but dealt strictly with how it's metabolized into energy (ie. not like carbohydrates).

If you want to educate everyone, at least make sure you a) know what you're talking about and b) read what was already fucking written.

I supported your statement, just augmented it, because the acetaldehyde is very important to why alcohol does what it does to the arteries through long term abuse.
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post #18 of 21
2/2/08 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
Alcohol is better than Tylenol, therefore alcohol is healthy for the liver... Non sequitur arguments are awesome. And no, acetaminophen is not put into Vicodin to prevent abuse by potentially killing the recipient; it's a pain reliever that works differently from hydrocodone to reduce pain. Combining both generic drugs results in a stronger pain reliever overall. No, alcohol is not 'healthy'. Please stop making ridiculous blanket statements. It's like saying cocaine is healthy because it works as a local anesthetic. Anything deemed as 'healthy' needs a proper dosage and use for the health benefits. Using alcohol is not 'healthy' unless in certain circumstances (e.g. non-exercising older individual with possible heart problems). I certainly wouldn't tell an athlete to begin using alcohol because it's 'healthy' for their heart, because the athlete's daily activities provide sufficient heart health and alcohol would likely have a detrimental effect. Re-read what I wrote. I didn't go into alcohol metabolism in detail, but dealt strictly with how it's metabolized into energy (ie. not like carbohydrates). If you want to educate everyone, at least make sure you a) know what you're talking about and b) read what was already fucking written. No, and it sounds like he doesn't either. Alcohol after a workout is a surefire way to kill the recovery process.
+1 this was already gone over last time the subject came up, it would be nice if people could actually believe that alcohol could possibly make you gain weight.
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post #19 of 21
2/2/08 at 8:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCsommerreid View Post
Way to put words in my mouth on that first bit. I never said that because it was less liver damaging than tylenol that it was thus healthy for the liver.

So your argument was a complete red herring. It's like me saying 'The sky is blue! You lose!'.

Quote:
I also didn't say it was the only reason acetaminophen, but it is in many ways a deterrent to some abusers. I wish I had a better source for this specific portion, but I quothe wikipedia:

"The presence of acetaminophen in hydrocodone-containing products deters many drug users from taking excessive amounts."

Whew. There's a solid fact. With such quantifiable amounts such as 'many' and the absolutely impeccable information of Wikipedia combined I think you found a voodoo spell to raise Francis Bacon from his grave.

Quote:
"In addition to being sold by itself, paracetamol may be included in the formulations of various analgesics and cold/flu remedies as a way to increase the pain-relieving properties of the medication, and sometimes in combination with opioids such as hydrocodone to deter people from using it recreationally or becoming addicted to the opioid substance." (Brecher, Edward M (1972). Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs. Boston: Little, Brown.)

This has nothing to do with what you posted and doesn't mention liver damage at all. Not only that, but the idea of becoming addicted to a drug would seem to be an adequate deterrent to anyone taking it sensibly (ie. not addicts).

Quote:
So the studies about the anti-oxidant effects of light to moderate drinking of red wine, dark beers, and some distilled liquors are flawed, then? If so, the people in that study must be dropping like flies, then, because of their drinking's effect on the heart.

Yes, because anti-oxidants contained in alcohol are found nowhere else and are the sole method of keeping the human heart healthy.
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post #20 of 21
2/2/08 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
With such quantifiable amounts such as 'many' and the absolutely impeccable information of Wikipedia combined I think you found a voodoo spell to raise Francis Bacon from his grave.



I don't know what argument that post was supposed to be making, but it failed.
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post #21 of 21
2/2/08 at 9:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post
So your argument was a complete red herring. It's like me saying 'The sky is blue! You lose!'.
"Excessive alcohol is. Alcohol is actually better on your liver than regular strength tylenol when taken in reasonable doses."

Perhaps the way I phrased it is confusing. "Better on your liver" does not mean "drink alcohol and have a healthy liver". It means "alcohol damages the liver less than tylenol", which it does based on toxicity and long term fatal damage (cirrhosis).

It was not a red herring, since I said what I meant, and there was no "sub argument" being distracted from. Until you fire off your own data, tylenol is more chronically and acutely damaging to the liver than normal levels of alcohol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by why
Yes, because anti-oxidants contained in alcohol are found nowhere else and are the sole method of keeping the human heart healthy.

Know what anti-oxidants are contained in what alcoholic drinks, and what other foods hold those specific chemicals? If it turns out that this specific chemical is only found in alcoholic beverages then they would be the only way for that specific heart health benefit known at this point in time.


Just a by the by, perhaps I am putting my position in poor terms. So let me be blatant:

Drinking excessive alcohol regularly is very very very bad for you
Drinking immediately before or immediately after exercise probably doesn't help
Drinking dehydrates you, and over time will build up damage to some extent
Everything you do damages your body to some extent over time
Drinking in lightly in moderation is healthy according to studies

I can explain those further if perhaps I'm not clear, but this allows to end of argument from fallacy, straw man arguments, appeals to consequence, and accidental fallacy, perhaps from both of us.
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