Most bespoke looks terrible

Originally Posted by whnay.

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Maybe if your staying at a budget inn. My point is that the vast majority of forum members live in the United States. Language barriers aside the all-in cost of even well priced Italian bespoke (Solito and others) is very high relatively speaking.

Unfortunately, this is so true . . .

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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To be fair, it's a little tougher outside of Italy

....
True, and there is the problem of looking for these tailors.

Originally Posted by whnay.

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Maybe if your staying at a budget inn. My point is that the vast majority of forum members live in the United States. Language barriers aside the all-in cost of even well priced Italian bespoke (Solito and others) is very high relatively speaking.

Yes, I cede the point that it will end up being more expensive for people who do not live in Europe. But if one flies to Italy for a days fitting, one can fly out the same day. And what counts as a 'budget inn'? Must one stay at a 5 star hotel for a night?

Originally Posted by whnay.

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I think the problem with some bespoke is two-fold:

1) The client doesn't have any taste or direction and is prone to add off the wall details and styling to the garment. My opinion is that it takes a great deal of discipline and knowledge to ensure the garment is built correctly.


2) Relative value is a misnomer. With a few exceptions (Vintage Gent / Whoopee) middle of the road bespoke like the HK tailors and many smaller US/UK shops are not as well made as MTM programs from some of the larger Italian houses. In my experience, both first and second hand, this is both a function of lower quality raw materials and finishing. In other words, not all "hand work" is created equal and in some cases the machines win out.

+1. Succeeding with bespoke requires an ability to visualize the outcome. Not all of us are up to that, or can afford to experiment enough to get the hang of the process. Or travel to Italy enough.

In my time browsing this site, AAAC, and occasionally the LL, I have rarely seen bespoke that looks bad. I have, however, seen plenty of bespoke that looks boring, dowdy, frumpy, old, etc. I am not sure if the cause of this is the client's wishes and tastes or the maker's lack of design. From what I understand, fit has to do not only with actual measurements, but the way those measurements relate to the look one is going for (i.e. a clean Roman-style suit should fit differently than a drapey A&S cut). Good RTW offers a particular design, style, or "look." If that design matches up well with your body, then it "fits" and you look great. Bespoke, on the other hand, all too often seems to aim at no design in particular and so achieves none, even though it fits perfectly in a technical sense. Again, I don't know if this is the fault of the client or the maker. I don't see any reason why even a really old-school Edwardian cut couldn't be done with panache to fit well and look outstanding. Witness LabelKing's post a while back on Bunny Rogers' suits. Take all this with a grain of salt as I don't have any personal experience of either high-end RTW or bespoke. Student budgets, you know...

Originally Posted by T4phage

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Yes, I cede the point that it will end up being more expensive for people who do not live in Europe. But if one flies to Italy for a days fitting, one can fly out the same day. And what counts as a 'budget inn'? Must one stay at a 5 star hotel for a night?

I was able to get everything done while on vacation with my fiancee. However, with the weak dollar, even mediocre hotels can be expensive. We stayed at a B&B in Rome that was clean and well-appointed, nothing fancy, and that cost us 150 euros a night. Add in airfare, time-off from work, travel within Italy, etc., and the costs mount up.

Another thing to consider is that it can be really diffcult to get things done after you've left Italy. For example, I wanted to get the hems shortened on my Ambrosi pants, but by no fault of Salvatore or Antonio, the pants were lost in the the mail and then lost by Italian customs. Finally, they made their way back to me, but that was more than 6 months later--and they still have to be sent back to Italy somehow to be shortened.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I was able to get everything done while on vacation with my fiancee. However, with the weak dollar, even mediocre hotels can be expensive. We stayed at a B&B in Rome that was clean and well-appointed, nothing fancy, and that cost us 150 euros a night. Add in airfare, time-off from work, travel within Italy, etc., and the costs mount up.

Another thing to consider is that it can be really diffcult to get things done after you've left Italy. For example, I wanted to get the hems shortened on my Ambrosi pants, but by no fault of Salvatore or Antonio, the pants were lost in the the mail and then lost by Italian customs. Finally, they made their way back to me, but that was more than 6 months later--and they still have to be sent back to Italy somehow to be shortened.

Once they sent my trousers to me, but strangely it was packaged with some books, videotapes and cds from the Naples library.. and it was not even the Ambrosi's ! . Seems as if the post office combined two packages.

Yes, for Americans with the weak dollar, it is too much of a hassle not to go with a more 'established' firm. With that you have a firm that has a reputation to live up to. What I am pointing out is that for Europeans, it can be cheaper to go to Italy (including multiple flights) and still pay less than Kiton/Brioni.

Originally Posted by T4phage

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What I am pointing out is that for Europeans, it can be cheaper to go to Italy (including multiple flights) and still pay less than Kiton/Brioni.
As long as you have the time and leisure to do that. That's not a given.

Originally Posted by RJman

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As long as you have the time and leisure to do that. That's not a given.
There's always Darren Beaman, no?

And we are still waiting for fit pics!

Originally Posted by whacked

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There's always Baron le Chat Mort, no?

And we are still waiting for fit pics!

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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--and they still have to be sent back to Italy somehow to be shortened.

You are going to send pants back to Italy to have the hems shortened?

Originally Posted by edmorel

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You are going to send pants back to Italy to have the hems shortened?

Yep. I'm in no rush, and I'd prefer Ambrosi to handle it so they can make the adjustment to my pattern for future pants.

wouldn't it be better to have someone here hem them for you, getting the precise measurement while you are wearing them and then sending those to ambrosi as opposed to sending them and telling him something like, "shortened them by 5/8 of an inch"?

Agreed. Many of the pictures of bespoke clothing here on members looks ill-fitted and dowdy.

IIRC, the Ambrosi pants have the cool buttoned cuffs so it may actually be a good idea to have him do the length work to make sure the buttoned cuff is done right

Originally Posted by Arnach

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Agreed. Many of the pictures of bespoke clothing here on members looks ill-fitted and dowdy.
Two thoughts: 1. If the owner likes it, that is really the point. Even if I (we) do not. 2. Pictures are static, a well fit suit looks better in motion and we are moving most of the time.