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Colin Kaepernick is an a-hole - Page 4

post #46 of 107

You have been missed around here. It's nice to see you back. You make several good points. In fact, you could go further with other issues that could be addressed in the black community. I agree that they could be raised in tandem with issues of police violence. I also agree that CK could help himself by, at least, acknowledging those issues and that he could make an impact in the black community by focusing on other issues too. However, his point is not less valid or dishonest, because he is not raising those issues.

 

It's also not quite fair to say this:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

Most of what I've read here and listened to elsewhere is pure obfuscation.

 

Your contention is, essentially, one big obfuscation or, as StyleForumers like to call it: a red herring. The issues you raise about the black family community are meaningful. There's certainly some correlation between police violence and the issues in the black community. However, someone protesting police violence is not dishonest for not raising them in tandem. Raising those other issues you mentioned may make his argument stronger, particularly to people already inclined to disagree. However, failing to raise them doesn't invalidate his argument or make it less honest. He has no obligation to raise every tangential issue or even every closely related issue. He's just raising one issue. This may make him less persuasive to some, but it doesn't make him dishonest. The issues you raise are interesting, but ultimately they are obfuscation themselves.

 

Flip the script. There are many people opposing CK who argue that disrespecting the flag insults our military. Are they dishonest or are their points invalid, if they fail to say, "Respect our military and the freedom they fight for ... but ... I also want to acknowledge that the military's invasion of Iraq appears to have been based on lies and likely led to the destabilization of that region and contributed to the continued use of drones that have killed civilians, further inflaming radical Muslims, inspiring terrorist groups, and resulting in further need to use our military to protect our freedom." A bit hyperbolic, I concede. Nonetheless, there should be nothing wrong with just saying, "Respect the people who fought and died for your flag." That other shit is another discussion. Related, but another discussion.

 

It's a protest. CK doesn't need to footnote himself. Nor do his opponents.


Edited by zalb916 - 9/16/16 at 7:03am
post #47 of 107
CK is free to knell, sit or do jumping jacks when the national anthem is being played - I personally find it offensive and counterproductive but to each his own in this country. I am interested in finding ways to improve the system and I have an open mind about our ability to change perceptions in this country.

I agree with CK that police violence towards black people is an issue, I've already acknowledged as much. But it cannot be sufficiently addressed without exploring the root causes of the problem. And to think that is can is the very definition of obfuscation. This is where I think you (and others on this thread and elsewhere) are confused.

If CK and others want to engage the public in a discourse around the problem, lets talk about it. But I get a little tired of protests without a well thought out purpose.
post #48 of 107

at best you've referenced arguments without actually making one - beyond, of course, "disqualifying" a black man from talking about black men because you don't like his language. 

 

and anyways, unless you're willing to post a pic of every pair of socks you've ever worn, i simply cannot take your claim or standing seriously. that's the local currency so i hear.

post #49 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

I agree with CK that police violence towards black people is an issue, I've already acknowledged as much. But it cannot be sufficiently addressed without exploring the root causes of the problem. And to think that is can is the very definition of obfuscation. This is where I think you (and others on this thread and elsewhere) are confused.

 

I think this is where you are confused. He's not trying to declare that he has the answer, to identify a root cause, or to shape public discourse. His intent is merely to bring awareness to what he perceives is a problem. That's it. It's kinda why he never said anything about it, went unnoticed for a few games, and still doesn't really say that much about it.

 

Why must he also identify a root cause or offer a comprehensive solution? He's merely a football player. He has a limited ability to do anything. What can he do? Use his notoriety to bring attention to a cause and use his money to, well, give money. That's what he's done. Leave it to the politicians, policemen, and men's clothing forum posters to identify the root causes, develop solutions, and have discussions about the topic.

 

All that pink shit the NFL is about to wear in October? Same thing. It's not identifying the root cause of breast cancer. It's not offering a solution for a cure. It's bringing attention to an issue. That's it. A bumper sticker on a car, a billboard, a bunch of idiots holding signs in front of a building, etc. Sometimes a protest is nothing more than just identifying an issue to raise awareness to a larger audience. Nothing more.

 

Must every person bringing awareness to a controversial issue being required to identify a root cause, offer complex solutions, declare a larger purpose, etc.? Why hold him to a higher standard?

post #50 of 107
I find it interesting that of all the things I've referenced you seem primarily concerned by the sock reference. Being this is primarily a site dedicated to clothing I guess its not surprising but its going to take a little more than that to get us anywhere.
post #51 of 107

The socks actually were pretty bad. Kinda undermined the seriousness of the issue that he was trying to convey. While they really don't have any relevance to whether his point is valid or not, they made it harder for people to think he's interested in change, as opposed to just calling out pigs.

post #52 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalb916 View Post

I think this is where you are confused. He's not trying to declare that he has the answer, to identify a root cause, or to shape public discourse. His intent is merely to bring awareness to what he perceives is a problem. That's it. It's kinda why he never said anything about it, went unnoticed for a few games, and still doesn't really say that much about it.

Why must he also identify a root cause or offer a comprehensive solution? He's merely a football player. He has a limited ability to do anything. What can he do? Use his notoriety to bring attention to a cause and use his money to, well, give money. That's what he's done. Leave it to the politicians, policemen, and men's clothing forum posters to identify the root causes, develop solutions, and have discussions about the topic.

All that pink shit the NFL is about to wear in October? Same thing. It's not identifying the root cause of breast cancer. It's not offering a solution for a cure. It's bringing attention to an issue. That's it. A bumper sticker on a car, a billboard, a bunch of idiots holding signs in front of a building, etc. Sometimes a protest is nothing more than just identifying an issue to raise awareness to a larger audience. Nothing more.

Must every person bringing awareness to a controversial issue being required to identify a root cause, offer complex solutions, declare a larger purpose, etc.? Why hold him to a higher standard?

Let's step away from CK for a moment. We both acknowledge there is a problem and CK wants us to talk about it. So please indulge me, what do you think we should do about it?
post #53 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post


Let's step away from CK for a moment. We both acknowledge there is a problem and CK wants us to talk about it. So please indulge me, what do you think we should do about it?

 

What should we do about the problem of police violence in the black community? I legitimately think we should follow your general plan. I mean, I'll answer your question, but this is my entire point. This is obfuscation. CK isn't proposing a solution, nor should he need to. He's just raising awareness.

 

So, if you want my answer ...

 

First, recognize that there is an issue with police violence. Not a blame game. Not assigning how prevalent it really is. Just a recognition and acknowledgement by all interested parties.

 

Next, develop ways to reduce the violence, including more training on de-escalation, increased cultural awareness on working in certain communities, and improved recruitment of both more qualified officers and more black officers. This is a non-comprehensive list.

 

Finally, there should be real discussion about the problems in the black community. If you want the police community to buy-in, there needs to be acknowledgement that the level of crime and violence in the black community plays a contributing role in police violence. You and I probably agree on many of the problems in the black community. We probably have some agreement and some disagreement on the causes. We probably have some agreement and disagreement on the potential solutions. However, I concede that there is fear and distrust in the police community because of the crime and violence in the black community, and this shapes their interactions.

 

For me, it is definitely a recognition by each side that each has a role in the problem. We don't need to assign percentage of blame. We don't need to agree on every solution. We should probably acknowledge some problems are too big to solve. However, the acknowledgment and recognition go a long way, as does a commitment by everybody to try to better themselves.

post #54 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

Have you decided to totally ignore those pesky left leaning facts and just make shit up  in order to support whatever it is that you are peddling?

Facts now have a political bias? Please expand as I'm mesmerized with this thought.
post #55 of 107

so you're not going to show us your socks?

 

but how will we know whether you deserve a place at the table? you made the rule, not me:

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

CKs pig cop socks. Those alone disqualify CK from having an honest conversation in the first place.
 

assuming honest conversation is the shared goal here?

post #56 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalb916 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post


Let's step away from CK for a moment. We both acknowledge there is a problem and CK wants us to talk about it. So please indulge me, what do you think we should do about it?

 

What should we do about the problem of police violence in the black community? I legitimately think we should follow your general plan. I mean, I'll answer your question, but this is my entire point. This is obfuscation. CK isn't proposing a solution, nor should he need to. He's just raising awareness.

 

So, if you want my answer ...

 

First, recognize that there is an issue with police violence. Not a blame game. Not assigning how prevalent it really is. Just a recognition and acknowledgement by all interested parties.

 

Next, develop ways to reduce the violence, including more training on de-escalation, increased cultural awareness on working in certain communities, and improved recruitment of both more qualified officers and more black officers. This is a non-comprehensive list.

 

Finally, there should be real discussion about the problems in the black community. If you want the police community to buy-in, there needs to be acknowledgement that the level of crime and violence in the black community plays a contributing role in police violence. You and I probably agree on many of the problems in the black community. We probably have some agreement and some disagreement on the causes. We probably have some agreement and disagreement on the potential solutions. However, I concede that there is fear and distrust in the police community because of the crime and violence in the black community, and this shapes their interactions.

 

For me, it is definitely a recognition by each side that each has a role in the problem. We don't need to assign percentage of blame. We don't need to agree on every solution. We should probably acknowledge some problems are too big to solve. However, the acknowledgment and recognition go a long way, as does a commitment by everybody to try to better themselves.

Thanks for the measured and well articulated thoughts, not surprisingly I agree with most of everything you said. And at the same time this is what is so frustrating about tackling polarizing issues today. Most reasonable people will come to largely the same conclusions on what needs to be done or what steps need to be taken but we are all collectively hijacked by the fringe on each side of any given debate.
post #57 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


Facts now have a political bias? Please expand as I'm mesmerized with this thought.

 

It was a joke, much like the bullshit Lighthouse typed.  I was paraphrasing Stephen Colbert from an old White House Correspondents Dinner

post #58 of 107
And sorry, just to come back to the "just raising awareness" narrative. The issue of police violence has been a non stop headline for over a year, during the summer it was the biggest issue debated in the news, online and around the water cooler. The DNC dedicated an hour of its convention to the mothers of police violence. There have been two mass shootings of cops in Dallas and BR. Major law enforcement reforms are under way across the nation. And unfortunately black men still are dying at the hands of other black men in droves in our major cities. CK is obviously aware of these realities if he has been paying attention over the last year or so.

So again, is CK's beef a legitimate, honest expression of raising awareness of an issue we all already know is a problem? Or are wearing pig cop socks and knelling during our national anthem just adding fuel to the fire?
post #59 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

And sorry, just to come back to the "just raising awareness" narrative. The issue of police violence has been a non stop headline for over a year, during the summer it was the biggest issue debated in the news, online and around the water cooler. The DNC dedicated an hour of its convention to the mothers of police violence. There have been two mass shootings of cops in Dallas and BR. Major law enforcement reforms are under way across the nation. And unfortunately black men still are dying at the hands of other black men in droves in our major cities. CK is obviously aware of these realities if he has been paying attention over the last year or so.

So again, is CK's beef a legitimate, honest expression of raising awareness of an issue we all already know is a problem? Or are wearing pig cop socks and knelling during our national anthem just adding fuel to the fire?

 

To hear some people talk about it, the issue of police violence has been a major concern for decades and has been ignored by the general public for just as long

post #60 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post


Thanks for the measured and well articulated thoughts, not surprisingly I agree with most of everything you said. And at the same time this is what is so frustrating about tackling polarizing issues today. Most reasonable people will come to largely the same conclusions on what needs to be done or what steps need to be taken but we are all collectively hijacked by the fringe on each side of any given debate.

 

I'm not sure how I feel yet about this new, less feisty whnay.

 

I very much agree with you, though. I would love to see a leader in the black community step forward that can provide a counter to BLM, which has taken the completely wrong approach and hijacked a lot of race issues. Setting aside any issues people have with Obama as president, I hope that his post-presidency can be as a leader in the black community to address issues that need serious reflection.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay. View Post

And sorry, just to come back to the "just raising awareness" narrative. The issue of police violence has been a non stop headline for over a year, during the summer it was the biggest issue debated in the news, online and around the water cooler. The DNC dedicated an hour of its convention to the mothers of police violence. There have been two mass shootings of cops in Dallas and BR. Major law enforcement reforms are under way across the nation. And unfortunately black men still are dying at the hands of other black men in droves in our major cities. CK is obviously aware of these realities if he has been paying attention over the last year or so.

So again, is CK's beef a legitimate, honest expression of raising awareness of an issue we all already know is a problem? Or are wearing pig cop socks and knelling during our national anthem just adding fuel to the fire?

 

We all know about breast cancer, right? Do NFL players need to keep wearing pink gloves and towels in October? Do we need to keep holding those walks? When is awareness too much awareness? Aren't there some other big diseases that should get attention?

 

It's really a personal perspective. I think all that pink in the NFL is a cheap attempt to sell more stuff (yeah, I know some proceeds are donated) and attract a female audience. I hate all those annoying packs of women doing those walks. I'd rather see more awareness directed towards other diseases. But I don't really know anybody who's experienced breast cancer. That shapes my perspective. So, I just kinda ignore it, because it doesn't really impact me. I may not agree with the methods. I may think there are other causes that deserve attention. But I recognize that these people legitimately think there's an issue that still needs awareness.

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