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post #121 of 146
More statistics.

"It is interesting to note that the armed-to-unarmed risk ratio in whites is elevated relative to that of black or hispanic individuals. This pattern is consistent with police being more discerning of armed/unarmed status before shooting a white suspect than shooting a black or hispanic suspect."

"Across almost all counties, individuals who were armed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Likewise, across almost all counties, individuals who were unarmed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Tragically, across a large proportion of counties, individuals who were shot by police had a higher median probability of being unarmed black individuals than being armed white individuals. While this pattern could be explained by reduced levels of crime being committed by armed white individuals, it still raises a question as to why there exists such a high rate of police shooting of unarmed black individuals."
post #122 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Interpretations of policy and law can change without the actual policy itself changing.
I actually looked at the statistics. Justifiable homicides increased every year from 2011-2013, with a slight dropoff in 2014 (still higher than 2012), and statisiticians believe this stat undercounts justifiable police homicides. It also completely ignores non-justifiable police homicides (which are lumped in with criminal homicides).

An independent site (which sources every homicide it lists) puts the numbers at 1111 in 2014 and 1208 in 2015, much higher than the FBI reports.

... yet violent crime is falling both in raw number of incidents and crime rate.

You just proved my point. Given the total number of times criminals come in contact with law enforcement, these numbers are a mere blip on the radar. While the lives are not insignificant, the year to year delta themselves from a statistical standpoint are.
post #123 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

More statistics.

"It is interesting to note that the armed-to-unarmed risk ratio in whites is elevated relative to that of black or hispanic individuals. This pattern is consistent with police being more discerning of armed/unarmed status before shooting a white suspect than shooting a black or hispanic suspect."

"Across almost all counties, individuals who were armed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Likewise, across almost all counties, individuals who were unarmed and shot by police had a much higher probability of being black or hispanic than being white. Tragically, across a large proportion of counties, individuals who were shot by police had a higher median probability of being unarmed black individuals than being armed white individuals. While this pattern could be explained by reduced levels of crime being committed by armed white individuals, it still raises a question as to why there exists such a high rate of police shooting of unarmed black individuals."

Even assuming those stats are accurate, they still fail to answer why shots were fired to begin with. You ever have someone unarmed beat the living daylights out of you and try to take your gun to kill you with it? I can name quite a few officers I've spoken to who have described exactly such events and on more than a single encounter. In fact it happens with far too much regularity. Most of the time they manage to resolve it without actually ever to fire them service pistol, but are you starting to see how some of these statistics don't always tell the whole story? Again, do any of you have any experience with violence and dealing with people who are going beyond just a simple silly fight that too many guys tend to get into? If not, than you don't have a complete perspective and what it's like to be on the receiving end of a life threatening attack. No policy, law or interest group protest can change that.
post #124 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

Oh boy

What happened to your anecdote?

Here is mine. I have many African friends in my Condos and in business. Not AAs but native Africans, generally from Nigeria with a few from Niger, Ghana, and other East Coast places.

I can imagine the crap I will get with an "I have a friend story", but I could care less.

Last Wednesday, I was invited to an Eid celebration at my friend's restaurant here in Houston. It is on Bissonnett St. in SW Houston. The food is native Nigerian and it it a family type place. The restaurant was closed, but open to those invited ( about 100 people ). The food was good but extremely spicy. Mostly skewers of Chicken, liver, beef and other stuff, with Jollah rice ( Sp ). It was real heavy on the cayenne but I like hot, so it was great. There was also a salad, beef marrow soup and fruits. It was a nice meal but the celebration and fellowship was what it was about.

It was strictly non political ( it was Eid! ), and there was a mix of faiths, Mostly Nigerian Muslims of course and a sprinkling of Christians and Jews. But, of course i talked about a few "political" things. It's not generally known but Nigerian in the US have the highest % of people with advanced professional degrees than any other nationality (including Asians ). Things like Pharmacists, opticians, lawyers, Drs., PAs, RNs etc They are very intelligent and ambitious people. And of course they have other traits like a great work ethic, and super strong family structures.

These were Nigerian Muslims but I'm pretty sure that it applies to Nigerian Christians too. Houston has the largest Nigerian immigrant population in the USA. They told me it is about 100,000 people which surprised me. Anyway, you can see where I'm going with this. We talked about AAs as opposed to 1st generation Nigerian immigrants. Their attitude was one of compassion, but of reality. Other than skin color, they didn't think they had much in common with AAs. It was obvious why, and it was telling that there were no AAs there. They were welcome to come but none were there.

Anecdotally, this indicated to them and I that the problems of AAs are more behavioral than conditional. Most of the Nigerians came from lower middle class to poverty. Yet they are doing fine in the USA. So, flame away at me ( and at the Nigerians ).

So, as I said, we all seem to agree that there are big problems in the AA community. Doesn't matter if it is conditional or behavioral. It's time to do something about it.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php
Edited by rnoldh - 7/11/16 at 9:59pm
post #125 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post

You just proved my point. Given the total number of times criminals come in contact with law enforcement, these numbers are a mere blip on the radar. While the lives are not insignificant, the year to year delta themselves from a statistical standpoint are.

By that line of reasoning, the number of police officers killed by firearms is a very very tiny blip on the radar, and even more statistically insignificant than the number of civilians killed by police. No reason to even worry about it, it's so statistically insignificant, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post

Even assuming those stats are accurate, they still fail to answer why shots were fired to begin with. You ever have someone unarmed beat the living daylights out of you and try to take your gun to kill you with it? I can name quite a few officers I've spoken to who have described exactly such events and on more than a single encounter. In fact it happens with far too much regularity. Most of the time they manage to resolve it without actually ever to fire them service pistol, but are you starting to see how some of these statistics don't always tell the whole story? Again, do any of you have any experience with violence and dealing with people who are going beyond just a simple silly fight that too many guys tend to get into? If not, than you don't have a complete perspective and what it's like to be on the receiving end of a life threatening attack. No policy, law or interest group protest can change that.

So, the first thing you do is cast doubt on a peer-reviewed study with many cited sources, full disclosure of methodology, and discussion of potential flaws. Statistics are obviously imperfect, but they do tell a story and can't be discounted wholesale because they "don't tell the whole story."

Just because someone doesn't have personal experience or a "complete perspective" doesn't mean they don't have a right to educate themselves and form an opinion. I don't doubt that it is very scary being in a situation where your life is at stake, and I'm not sure how I'd react in the same situation as some of these officers, but fundamentally the problem comes down to whether or not the citizens, from whom the police's power is derived, trust those that they've chartered to "protect and serve" their communities.
post #126 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I see some beauty pageant winner has said she feels Micah is a martyr. This is going to help things.

Actualy, what she said is a bit more complicated than that.
post #127 of 146

^^^ police power emanates from the state, not the citizenry. fyi. it's not a small distinction.

post #128 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by double00 View Post

^^^ police power emanates from the state, not the citizenry. fyi. it's not a small distinction.

... and where does the state's power emanate from?
post #129 of 146

i will assume you're a big boy and can look things up all on your own.

 

in any case police power does not emanate from the citizenry if that's where your presumably socratic question was meant to lead me. 

 

again, fyi. and again, the distinction is i think essential to any meaningful discussion.

post #130 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

By that line of reasoning, the number of police officers killed by firearms is a very very tiny blip on the radar, and even more statistically insignificant than the number of civilians killed by police. No reason to even worry about it, it's so statistically insignificant, right?
So, the first thing you do is cast doubt on a peer-reviewed study with many cited sources, full disclosure of methodology, and discussion of potential flaws. Statistics are obviously imperfect, but they do tell a story and can't be discounted wholesale because they "don't tell the whole story."

You're making assumptions again. I don't discount the study wholesale, but as stated there are potential flaws but you seem hell bent on propping this study up as an accurate reflection of reality, when it only presents a partial picture.

Just because someone doesn't have personal experience or a "complete perspective" doesn't mean they don't have a right to educate themselves and form an opinion. I don't doubt that it is very scary being in a situation where your life is at stake, and I'm not sure how I'd react in the same situation as some of these officers, but fundamentally the problem comes down to whether or not the citizens, from whom the police's power is derived, trust those that they've chartered to "protect and serve" their communities.

That's your opinion. I suggest the fundamental problem is of people sowing seeds of distrust of the police and their use of force because it's not used in the way they prefer. It's especially problematic when that expectation is unrealistic and not based on an educated perspective. I'll give you an example. How many times have you heard critics of police use of force ask why they didn't just shoot the suspects in the leg or something to that effect? These people also consider their opinion an educated one that they not only have a right to but insist on implementation by the police. Are you going to suggest that such an opinion is both valid and reasonable?

Just from your statement alone it already appears that your mind is made up and no amount of information will disuade you of it. If as you admit, you don't know how you yourself would react, then how are your conclusions on these events educated rather than reactionary? What evidence have you come across that indicate these shootings are unjustified?
post #131 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmin209 View Post

Actualy, what she said is a bit more complicated than that.

Feel free to explicate and/or attempt to point out where my statement was non-factual.
post #132 of 146
Goddamit white fucking liberals. A real convo from a friend:

"I was walking home late-ish and there were 3 older teens breaking bottles over cars. I thought about calling the cops but they were black. And i literally had to think 'is breaking a bottle over a car worth a potential death sentence?' And then kept walking"
post #133 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post

That's your opinion. I suggest the fundamental problem is of people sowing seeds of distrust of the police and their use of force because it's not used in the way they prefer. It's especially problematic when that expectation is unrealistic and not based on an educated perspective. I'll give you an example. How many times have you heard critics of police use of force ask why they didn't just shoot the suspects in the leg or something to that effect? These people also consider their opinion an educated one that they not only have a right to but insist on implementation by the police. Are you going to suggest that such an opinion is both valid and reasonable?

Just from your statement alone it already appears that your mind is made up and no amount of information will disuade you of it. If as you admit, you don't know how you yourself would react, then how are your conclusions on these events educated rather than reactionary? What evidence have you come across that indicate these shootings are unjustified?

The USA is an undeniable outlier for western nations when it comes to police killings, it is a typically American problem and many factors may contribute:

-Lots of guns in circulation, I'd be shitting my pants if I was a police officer because you guys are fanatics about your firearms. This is coupled with media sensationalization of violent acts that may give the impression of an even more violent society than it currently is.
-An confrontational attitude of alarming police militarization
-Urban violence and massive poverty coupled with economic disparity
-A policy of criminalizing poverty leading to undue harassment and arrest of certain marginalized groups, this is coupled with police having a lot of leeway as to who gets penalized for what (i.e. Pio and his tailight versus some black dude in a cheap car)
-Cultural aspects: you guys have a hard-on for the rugged frontier rebel making his way in the world with smarts and quite a few bouts of violence. You're not the Swiss...
- A tendency to set rules of self-defense and rules of engagements with a low threshold for lethal action and the police culture that goes with it. Police rarely gets penalized afterwards, no matter what happens...
post #134 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

As has been said in this thread, BLM doesn't have membership dues, cards or an organization. Micah was a loner, but obviously was aware of BLM and influenced by them.

BLM is a response to a general feeling of unrest in the black community about their perception of the interaction with the police. I think it's quite reasonable to question some of their tactics (blocking highways and such), but the idea of pressing the concern into the national discussion is exactly how a community ought to respond to a serious concern like this.


I don't think we can demand that they shut up because the 0.0001% outliers like Micah have responded with violence. There's a real concern here. It's tragic when pressing an issue inspires some deranged person to commit violence, but it doesn't mean the issue shouldn't continue to be pressed.
post #135 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

The USA is an undeniable outlier for western nations when it comes to police killings, it is a typically American problem and many factors may contribute:

-Lots of guns in circulation, I'd be shitting my pants if I was a police officer because you guys are fanatics about your firearms. This is coupled with media sensationalization of violent acts that may give the impression of an even more violent society than it currently is.
-An confrontational attitude of alarming police militarization
-Urban violence and massive poverty coupled with economic disparity
-A policy of criminalizing poverty leading to undue harassment and arrest of certain marginalized groups, this is coupled with police having a lot of leeway as to who gets penalized for what (i.e. Pio and his tailight versus some black dude in a cheap car)
-Cultural aspects: you guys have a hard-on for the rugged frontier rebel making his way in the world with smarts and quite a few bouts of violence. You're not the Swiss...
- A tendency to set rules of self-defense and rules of engagements with a low threshold for lethal action and the police culture that goes with it. Police rarely gets penalized afterwards, no matter what happens...

These are valid insights and certainly needs to be addressed. However, movements like BLM makes it difficult to have any kind of meaningful conversation because they go to extreme of the other end and won't accept any middle ground. I've tried talking to some of the BLM supporters, some of whom are friends I've known a long time and it's like talking to a child who has his fingers in his ear going, lalalalalala, I can't hear you.
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