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post #106 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

That's why it's so important for police to learn and practice deescalation tactics. Deep down at the core, this is an issue that affects every American. Making sure that police use lethal force only as a last resort should be important to everyone who believes in the Constitution.

I agree wholeheartedly with this 100% I am sincere about this, absolutely.

But here's an observation. We are a nation of laws, correct. Generally state laws govern these incidents ( though I guess they are all subject to Federal review ). I wholeheartedly believe we should accept the judgements of authorities, be they local or Federal, as to the outcomes in these case. Many are unhappy with the results in cases like Eric Garner, Freddie Gray and Mike Brown, and don't want to accept Obama's DOJs findings. I do, and it's not because of an agenda. I thought it was a horrible injustice that Mosby indicted the 6 cops in the Freddie Gray case, but I'll wait to see how it plays out. If any of them are ultimately convicted, then that is the legal judgement, and we should all accept it.

And I'm not saying it will happen or should happen, but would you accept a No-Bill of a possible indictment of the Alton Sterlings shooters?

What is the solution? To me it is changing standards from within, and legally. No one has the right to say " I don't like the laws as written, they are unfair, they shouldn't apply to me, and I will resist them. Well, anyone has the right to try that, but it's not what I believe.

As to BLM, here is a statement today from a BLM leader ( as described by CNN ). It sort of applies to what we've said, in that we all want standards reviewed and changed. I want it done from within and legally, and that doesn't seem acceptable to her,
post #107 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Wait a minute... I'm confused. Aren't we not supposed to jump to conclusions until we have all the facts?

Picking apart and looking at individual cases obfuscates the issue. It doesn't matter if the officers were cleared. The argument is that this is a systemic issue. Would officers have shot without asking questions if Rice were white? We will never know, because we don't hear about cases where officers encounter a kid with a BB gun and don't shoot them.

There's undoubtedly a systemic issue -- though I doubt there's really a racial disparity in police shootings. It's black crime, not abstract racism, that's the real cause of racial disparities -- in policing, and in pretty much everything else. It's not just cops who are afraid of blacks. It leads to segregation in housing, schools, employment, etc.

And it's not irrational when you look at the crime statistics. Does telling blacks it's not their fault or their responsibility, blaming police and society in general make that better? By all indications it makes it worse.
post #108 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post

Actually there were eyewitness testimony that Martin approached Zimmerman along with Zimmerman's testimony that Martin attacked right at the start of their interaction with each other (though obviously his testimony can't be taken at face value). These pieces of evidence along with the 911 call tranascirpts lends credence to Zimmerman's claims. Believe what you will.

As far as I remember, there was no evidence conflicting with anything Zimmerman says in this video where he's with cops at the scene again. I think just about anyone in that situation would have shot Martin.
post #109 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

There's undoubtedly a systemic issue -- though I doubt there's really a racial disparity in police shootings. It's black crime, not abstract racism, that's the real cause of racial disparities -- in policing, and in pretty much everything else. It's not just cops who are afraid of blacks. It leads to segregation in housing, schools, employment, etc.

And it's not irrational when you look at the crime statistics. Does telling blacks it's not their fault or their responsibility, blaming police and society in general make that better? By all indications it makes it worse.

You make too much sense. You just refuse to get with the "narrative".

Here is something from a prominent Harvard Economist, Prof. Roland Fryer

Black Harvard economist finds no racial bias in officer-involved shootings

Oh yeah, he's Black! He must be an Uncle Tom or a sellout

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/28107/

COLLEGE FIX STAFF •JULY 11, 2016
209 165 Share3 6

‘The most surprising result of my career’

The youngest black professor ever to receive tenure at Harvard and recipient of an economics prize for “most promising American economist under 40” has just upended the conventional wisdom on police shootings.

There is no racial bias when officers fire on suspects, according to a new study by Prof. Roland Fryer – black suspects are actually less likely to be shot than other suspects.

The study looked at more than a thousand shootings in 10 major police departments, The New York Times reports. Fryer and student researchers spent 3,000 hours putting together data from police reports in Houston, Austin, Dallas and Los Angeles, as well as Orlando, Jacksonville and four other Florida counties,

There is a linked video that is worth watching.

Also note that award winning, tenured Harvard Prof. Fryer does not have the gravitas and street cred of the above quoted Cal State Prof. of Pan Africana Studies Melinah Abdullah, BLM Founder
post #110 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Here's the problem: regardless of what you explicitly claim, bringing it up in the context of this discussion and saying "we shall see" carries the implication that's it's possible this was BLM related, even though there's no evidence of it yet. On the other hand, when there are videos of someone apparently defenseless being killed by police, there is evidence that some people could interpret as misconduct. A lot of these cases are gray areas and open to interpretation.

Once you take a life, you can't give it back. Even if that person is or was a criminal, you are robbing them of their constitutional right to due process. That's why it's so important that we don't let the concept of "officer's life in danger" broaden, which is what BLM and others perceive is happening. That's why it's so important for police to learn and practice deescalation tactics. Deep down at the core, this is an issue that affects every American. Making sure that police use lethal force only as a last resort should be important to everyone who believes in the Constitution.

Do you even know what training the police have or do not have with regards to the escalation of force (or de-escalation)? I actually train people on the use of force including some police officers. Every department's policies and training are somewhat different, but your statement makes a great number of erroneous assumptions. 'Officer's life in danger" parameters have not broaden any, however, the circumstances that lead to that kind of situation have been much more sensationalized in the press and by people with agendas. If you actually look at statistics on violent encounters between law enforcement and the general public, you'll find the numbers relatively steady and equal throughout the years. I suggest you research this before making more of your misguided conclusions. A criminal is not "robbed" of his right to due process when he created and pushed the circumstances that leads to his/her death. His "due process" are determined both in the policies set forth by various law enforcement agency and by what the law does or does not allow when it comes to self defense and the use of force for a police officer (yes even cops have to obey the law). Those parameters are not that much different between an officer and a private citizen, with the exception being that LE officers do have a duty to make arrest and therefore escalate contact with criminals.
post #111 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

There's undoubtedly a systemic issue -- though I doubt there's really a racial disparity in police shootings. It's black crime, not abstract racism, that's the real cause of racial disparities -- in policing, and in pretty much everything else. It's not just cops who are afraid of blacks. It leads to segregation in housing, schools, employment, etc.

And it's not irrational when you look at the crime statistics. Does telling blacks it's not their fault or their responsibility, blaming police and society in general make that better? By all indications it makes it worse.

this is now getting into a chicken and egg question, but what do you think came first -- the conditions that lead to generally more violent and criminal behavior, or these behaviors that lead to the conditions? another way to frame it is, did blacks get a start on equal footing in this country ? one simplification is just to look at education and opportunities. sure, you have locals like DC or Baltimore where larger sums per student are earmarked (note that earmarked does not necessarily equate to efficient and proper spending) compared to the national average, but you also have plenty of examples like south Chicago or Houston where the average is well below. Or take Detroit, where the kids have one textbook per classroom and have to take pictures and read on their mobile devices (may the forces that be smite these heathens for spending precious resources on superfluous devices!). There are also cases where, when pressed, so-called progressives even refuse to have their precious flower children sent to schools of socioeconomically (translating quite well in racially) mixed classrooms. What about incarceration rates, if we just look at drug offenses for example. It's safe to assume that cocaine use is quite rampant in, say, Wall St (am I racist for assuming this) but how often are police patrolling the streets looking for coked out bankers vs blacks peddling weed or whatever garbage is hot in the hood. I don't know the answers to all these questions, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss them because, while personal responsibility is a massive factor, there are other forces at play here.
post #112 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

You make too much sense. You just refuse to get with the "narrative".

Here is something from a prominent Harvard Economist, Prof. Roland Fryer

Black Harvard economist finds no racial bias in officer-involved shootings

Oh yeah, he's Black! He must be an Uncle Tom or a sellout

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/28107/

"Other research has shown that blacks are more likely to be stopped by the police." So if we take x = rate of being stopped , and y = rate of shooting, and if y_white = y_black, but x_white < x_black , then x*y for blacks is higher than for whites. That means, while the risk of being shot might be the same, there will simply be a higher rate of blacks that get stopped and potentially shot.

On top of that, "on non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police" (NYT), or as the author put it, "in the raw data, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force [pushed to wall, weapon drawn, pusehd to ground ,gun pointed, pepper sprayed, grabbed, handcuffed, kciked, stun gunned or pepper sprayed]"

One would assume these are also important points brought up as limitations in the study you brought up.
post #113 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post

As to what it has to do with BLM, we shall see. Many inmates are very much in the middle of BLM anger as Micah was

Where have you seen anything regarding Johnson being a part of BLM? All I have read is:
'During the standoff, Mr. Johnson, who was black, told police negotiators that “he was upset about Black Lives Matter,” Chief Brown said.'
post #114 of 146
This entire incident is also perhaps the best test of the theory that more guns can prevent shootings. I'm sure there were plenty of armed people around, and certainly more than a handful with training, and yet the guy managed to fire off how many rounds? Yet he was eliminated not by retaliatory gunfire but by a damn bomb.
post #115 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post



this is now getting into a chicken and egg question, but what do you think came first -- the conditions that lead to generally more violent and criminal behavior, or these behaviors that lead to the conditions?

You are right and in an important way, does it matter?

You seem to be agreeing with ataturk's premise, as I do, that it's black crime that is is the cause of racial disparities we've discussed.

Whether it is/was the conditions or behaviors that cause these disparities, they should be addressed.

I believe BLM is a huge hindrance and obstruction to any meaningful attempts to make things better. How do you feel Shah?

In a way, this discussion mirrors the political situation. It seems to me that not many DEMs think it is behaviors that are the cause of the problem, and not many GOPers think it's conditions that are the cause ( though undoubtedly more GOPers would ascribe it to conditions than DEMs that would ascribe it to behavoirs ).
post #116 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

Where have you seen anything regarding Johnson being a part of BLM? All I have read is:
'During the standoff, Mr. Johnson, who was black, told police negotiators that “he was upset about Black Lives Matter,” Chief Brown said.'

http://www.click2houston.com/news/report-2-officers-shot-at-dallas-protest

Here came down here to Houston to train and stay with the NBPP a few years ago for 6 months. This was during and immediately after the Mike Brown incident when the NBPP was an extremely militant and avid ally of BLM. Johnson was right in the middle of the NBPP. That's a connection to me.

Interestingly, the Houston leader of the NBPP, Quanell X, has said Micah wouldn't follow a chain of command and he sent him back to Dallas. Quanell claimed that he advised "the brother to get counseling".

As has been said in this thread, BLM doesn't have membership dues, cards or an organization. Micah was a loner, but obviously was aware of BLM and influenced by them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

This entire incident is also perhaps the best test of the theory that more guns can prevent shootings. I'm sure there were plenty of armed people around, and certainly more than a handful with training, and yet the guy managed to fire off how many rounds? Yet he was eliminated not by retaliatory gunfire but by a damn bomb.

This is not the "best test". It is an individual occurance. Note that I do not own a gun, plan to get one, or am I against review of gun laws.
Edited by rnoldh - 7/11/16 at 6:46pm
post #117 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post


Do you even know what training the police have or do not have with regards to the escalation of force (or de-escalation)? I actually train people on the use of force including some police officers. Every department's policies and training are somewhat different, but your statement makes a great number of erroneous assumptions. 'Officer's life in danger" parameters have not broaden any, however, the circumstances that lead to that kind of situation have been much more sensationalized in the press and by people with agendas. If you actually look at statistics on violent encounters between law enforcement and the general public, you'll find the numbers relatively steady and equal throughout the years. I suggest you research this before making more of your misguided conclusions. A criminal is not "robbed" of his right to due process when he created and pushed the circumstances that leads to his/her death. His "due process" are determined both in the policies set forth by various law enforcement agency and by what the law does or does not allow when it comes to self defense and the use of force for a police officer (yes even cops have to obey the law). Those parameters are not that much different between an officer and a private citizen, with the exception being that LE officers do have a duty to make arrest and therefore escalate contact with criminals.


i would add a couple of thoughts: 1) as noted above, police officers don't trade their own humanity or rights as citizens in exchange for a badge; and 2) it seems all too common to frame our enumerated rights as protections, and they are that. but no less are they a set of responsibilities and existential standards that form the basis of our civil society. some commenters seem to go so far as to reduce them to entitlements which is an extraordinarily condescending and debased view of civil rights imo. 

post #118 of 146
I see some beauty pageant winner has said she feels Micah is a martyr. This is going to help things.
post #119 of 146
Oh boy
Edited by the shah - 7/11/16 at 8:33pm
post #120 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mute View Post

'Officer's life in danger" parameters have not broaden any

Interpretations of policy and law can change without the actual policy itself changing.
Quote:
If you actually look at statistics on violent encounters between law enforcement and the general public, you'll find the numbers relatively steady and equal throughout the years.

I actually looked at the statistics. Justifiable homicides increased every year from 2011-2013, with a slight dropoff in 2014 (still higher than 2012), and statisiticians believe this stat undercounts justifiable police homicides. It also completely ignores non-justifiable police homicides (which are lumped in with criminal homicides).

An independent site (which sources every homicide it lists) puts the numbers at 1111 in 2014 and 1208 in 2015, much higher than the FBI reports.

... yet violent crime is falling both in raw number of incidents and crime rate.
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