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Brexit - Page 24

post #346 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

I've already attempted to draw out an actual discussion from your cretinous ilk, but you literally do not have the capacity to take the conversation above "you're a loser, nah nah na nah nah".

Playground language like "sore loser" simply has no relevance to a question of democratic principles. And yet you repeat the phrase, again and again and again, like a broken record, or like a boneheaded dullard with nothing of value or interest to say about the actual substantive issues that underly the vote.

Draw out a discussion? Nah, you just wanted people to agree with whatever you said. Real discussions have been happening here and you've just ignored them. Also, this link from Fuuma is way more interesting than anything you've had to say: https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/ and actually talks about the Leave people as real people vs. the caricatures you've created in your vacuous cranium.

Now, as to the bolded, you are seriously fucking delusional. I mean delusional on a next level. Why? You introduced the term "sore loser" into this conversation and I've used it exactly once and that was to quote you. So not only did I not repeat the phrase "again and again and again" you are the one that initiated said characterization.

And now the rebut will be to call me more names and state I'm uneducated and unintelligent again. Great stuff.
post #347 of 383
Thread Starter 
Speaking of that link from Fuuma, let's look at the opening paragraph:
Quote:
The decision by U.K. voters to leave the EU is such a glaring repudiation of the wisdom and relevance of elite political and media institutions that — for once — their failures have become a prominent part of the storyline. Media reaction to the Brexit vote falls into two general categories: (1) earnest, candid attempts to understand what motivated voters to make this choice, even if that means indicting their own establishment circles, and (2) petulant, self-serving, simple-minded attacks on disobedient pro-Leave voters for being primitive, xenophobic bigots (and stupid to boot), all to evade any reckoning with their own responsibility.

Sound like anyone posting in this thread? laugh.gif
post #348 of 383
man it's hard to follow this discussion without getting drawn into it.

I don't think leave voters are stupid, nor do I think of them as caricatures. I'm sure they are real people with real concerns, just as anybody else who voted in the referendum.

What I do think is that a fair share of those who voted leave were brainwashed into doing so by two big leave-campaign lies:

- EU legislation is made by unelected officials, and
- there is a conspiracy against democracy by "big banks" and "big business"

...both repeated by Pat Condell in that awful Youtube rant that somebody linked to further up in this thread.

The worst thing is that even if both things were true - which of course they aren't - the leave campaign made people believe that by voting the UK out of the EU, they would end/change.
post #349 of 383
/\ All true,
the reason they voted out is because EU does not work for most people. There is no harmonization of laws, there is no harmonization of banking for individuals, and there is not even harmonization of the cell phone service (it is like being in US in 1990s). There is no understanding that EU needs to pick one business language and run with it, huge percentage of Europeans cannot communicate with each other due to absence of proper language education. How does EU expect to form one-market of labor if there is no common language?
There is no EU passport or EU residency permit that would cover all countries without entangling individual in truly Byzantine bureaucratic process that such individual have to wade through in some obscure language.
All I am saying that people don't see benefits because they are few and far..., all they see are drawbacks of EU in their daily lives and newspapers.
Hopefully Brexit will serve as a wake-up call to Brussels that urgent changes are needed to make this EU experiment as convenient for European citizens as they are for large banks. May be TTIP is required learning tool for this continent, may be we need Americans to come and finally teach us how to do business on big scale across multiple local jurisdictions.
post #350 of 383
^ Europe does have an integrated cell phone service now, and there have always been options for frequent travellers.

But of course there are tonnes of problems. First and foremost, you have 28 sovereign states who all have their own interests to look out for. You're never going to get the level of integration that the US has, but no one wants that. Europe's strength has always been in competition between lots of smaller states. I don't think US-style big business is what Europe needs at all. The US can be an extremely anti-competitive marketplace.

You might forget that the UK was the fastest growing economy by far in the G7 in 2014 (2.9%) and also led in 2015 (2.2%). Germany has done extremely well historically in the EU as well. The framework of the EU alone can't be blamed for the problems of the European continent as a whole.

A typical example of a problem that was blamed on the EU in the UK was low wages caused by freedom of movement. But the UK government has the tools to to raise wages if it wanted to do. They didn't want to because low wages are great for business and for employment levels.

People really were misled on what the EU does and doesn't do. Regions of the U.K. that voted to leave are the same regions that will now face big job cuts. It really was a case of turkeys voting for Christmas in a lot of places. That's what's so saddening about it.

I have been criticising the EU for years, but there's a big difference between criticising it and leaving it. The economic uncertainty alone will be enough to flatten the economy in the next two years. My firm has decided not to hire its usual graduates into the London office this year. Dozens of friends are already looking for jobs in Berlin, Copenhagen, Frankfurt, Zurich, etc. Others are trying to go to HK, and I'm considering that option myself. The FTSE 250 is tanking. The £ is at its lowest level since the '80s and is the worst performing currency in the world this year. I can't buy shit in Euros anymore. UK bank stocks are down 30%. And we are just warming up. Look the leadership contests in British political parties. They're a complete joke. People who see /this/ as taking back freedom have a very funny idea of freedom.
Edited by Loathing - 7/10/16 at 4:59pm
post #351 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

^ Europe does have an integrated cell phone service now,
Which company provides EU wide calling and data service, please share I need that ASAP.
post #352 of 383
Currently how most UK carriers work is that you get your full UK data+calls package in any EU country automatically when you arrive, but there is a daily surcharge of £2.

Vodafone UK recently started offering better contracts where you automatically get free calls/texts + 4GB/month of data in 40 European countries. (That's on top of 30GB of data you get in the UK.)

Next year, my understanding is that all EU carriers will eliminate roaming charges entirely, as part of legislation passed in 2015.
post #353 of 383
Vodafone Germany has just started offering free EU-wide roaming for calls and data services, including for pay-as-you-go users. Starting from 9.99 euros,will buy you a month of EU-wide calls, messages and data.

I actually think that this nicely illustrated how the EU's image problem is less to do with alienation from or arrogance of its political leaders, than that people take for granted what it achieves for them (but of course blame it for what doesn't work). Do you think mobile phone companies are beginning to phase out roaming charges out of their own accord, or out of pure friendliness toward their customers? All the big telecoms in Europe were lobbying against the abolition of roaming charges when that legislation was under review. Oh and by the way it was the European Parliament, directly elected by the people (yes, including the British, supposedly stripped of their sovereignty by the EU), that kept insisting that free roaming be included in the legal act. How's that for a conspiracy between big business and the political establishment against democracy? But I'm afraid we all have leave voters to thank if we end up paying for UK roaming again, once the UK has left the EU.
post #354 of 383
Does not operate in Belgium or Luxemburg. Will wait for 2017 .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post


A typical example of a problem that was blamed on the EU in the UK was low wages caused by freedom of movement. But the UK government has the tools to to raise wages if it wanted to do. They didn't want to because low wages are great for business and for employment levels.

Wages in UK are significantly lower in my industry than a mainland EU. I have no idea how UK managed to accomplish that with strong GBP. I would not take an offer from UK even to work remotely the wages are so fucking low. Even with old exchange rate GBP/EUR wages were ridiculously depressed. I have several colleagues from UK , who are not planning to go back due to that problem. They all have families and prefer to relocate them to Benelux or commute to UK on weekends. Almost all headhunter calls I receive are from UK and some of them get upset when you tell them you are not planning to relocate to UK due to low wages (in reality it is low wages plus the location). Ridiculous.
Edited by Medwed - 7/11/16 at 12:12am
post #355 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

/\ All true,
the reason they voted out is because EU does not work for most people. There is no harmonization of laws, there is no harmonization of banking for individuals, and there is not even harmonization of the cell phone service (it is like being in US in 1990s). There is no understanding that EU needs to pick one business language and run with it, huge percentage of Europeans cannot communicate with each other due to absence of proper language education. How does EU expect to form one-market of labor if there is no common language?
There is no EU passport or EU residency permit that would cover all countries without entangling individual in truly Byzantine bureaucratic process that such individual have to wade through in some obscure language.
All I am saying that people don't see benefits because they are few and far..., all they see are drawbacks of EU in their daily lives and newspapers.
Hopefully Brexit will serve as a wake-up call to Brussels that urgent changes are needed to make this EU experiment as convenient for European citizens as they are for large banks. May be TTIP is required learning tool for this continent, may be we need Americans to come and finally teach us how to do business on big scale across multiple local jurisdictions.

I'm not sure I am following you here. You seem to be criticising that there are barriers in the EU to harmonisation, i.e. not enough harmonisation? I thought it was EU legal-framework harmonisation that prompted people to vote leave, so the UK could make its legislation on its own?

As for there being "no EU passport", I don't know. All the nationally-issued passports I have seen say "EUROPEAN UNION" in fat letters on the cover and will give access to EU-wide visa- and border-free travel (or Schengen-wide anyway, those nasty Brits again!).

I'll stop though, because it's pointless. "Ordinary people" have formed a world-view in their minds that whatever goes wrong in their lives, it's the combined fault of "Brussels", the political elites, the unelected officials and multinational corporations. And nothing is going to revert all these anti-democratic tendencies but abolishing the most successful international organisation post WW-II, and voting a world-class moron into the world's most powerful political office. I guess time will tell if UK plumbers, cab drivers, bank tellers and hairdressers enjoy higher wages, lower unemployment, more job security, more disposable income, better living standards, safer food and higher-quality healthcare as the UK "regains sovereignty". Because honestly, any development that doesn't deliver this and Brexit is a disappointment.
post #356 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by il_colonnello View Post

I'm not sure I am following you here. You seem to be criticising that there are barriers in the EU to harmonisation, i.e. not enough harmonisation? I thought it was EU legal-framework harmonisation that prompted people to vote leave, so the UK could make its legislation on its own?

As for there being "no EU passport", I don't know. All the nationally-issued passports I have seen say "EUROPEAN UNION" in fat letters on the cover and will give access to EU-wide visa- and border-free travel (or Schengen-wide anyway, those nasty Brits again!).

I'll stop though, because it's pointless. "Ordinary people" have formed a world-view in their minds that whatever goes wrong in their lives, it's the combined fault of "Brussels", the political elites, the unelected officials and multinational corporations. And nothing is going to revert all these anti-democratic tendencies but abolishing the most successful international organisation post WW-II, and voting a world-class moron into the world's most powerful political office. I guess time will tell if UK plumbers, cab drivers, bank tellers and hairdressers enjoy higher wages, lower unemployment, more job security, more disposable income, better living standards, safer food and higher-quality healthcare as the UK "regains sovereignty". Because honestly, any development that doesn't deliver this and Brexit is a disappointment.

You are not following, because you assume I am pro this or against that. I am simply describing my experience with EU and what is not working for regular people such as myself. I am not arguing EU must be dismantled because it does not work. Quite the opposite, I am saying there is not enough integration in EU to work properly. Too much idiotic tribalism, barriers, and 1950s style bureaucracy mixed with xenophobia.
post #357 of 383
Does Brexit mean UK has to quickly come up with its own sanctions on Russia?
post #358 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

You are not following, because you assume I am pro this or against that. I am simply describing my experience with EU and what is not working for regular people such as myself. I am not arguing EU must be dismantled because it does not work. Quite the opposite, I am saying there is not enough integration in EU to work properly. Too much idiotic tribalism, barriers, and 1950s style bureaucracy mixed with xenophobia.

Political union and so called united states of Europe is a failed idea to begin with, much like communism. The idea sounds great but it doesn't hold up to reality. This is not Gene Roddenberry Star Trek quite far from it really. If you have traveled Europe you should know that national identities are still very strong here. I wouldn't say it's xenophobia, more like tribalism. There isn't european identity that's similiar to being american.

Also national interests tend to prevail on government level too. For example Germany has a history of doing deals with Russia behind our backs. Now they are building pipeline that doesn't run through poland so putin could effectively cut our gas off without stopping flow to Western Europe. Here's an articule on that https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/12862.4.0.0/world/energy/gazproms-dangerous-new-nord-stream-gas-pipeline-to-germany. And if shit hits the fan, Germans will condemn russia on tv and promise sanctions on Russia while we would be in deep shit. There's much talk from Germany about EU, that it needs to act as single political body etc but when it comes to their buisness they will only look out for themselves.

Also I'm not very fond of idea of delegating more and more power from my government to Brussells, where people whom we can't fire will make more and more laws for us. We are already being blackmailed by Junker to take migrants or if we don't he may fine us like 0,5-1m euro per/person. I'm not signing up for something like this.

Overall economic/trade union is good idea, I'd be glad if we would stopped right there. Europe is not ready for more and it will do much more harm than good.
Edited by wojt - 7/11/16 at 5:05am
post #359 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

Which company provides EU wide calling and data service, please share I need that ASAP.

Just get Google Fi.

That would be a US provider that has no extra charges for international use (although speeds are limited to 3g outside of the us).
post #360 of 383
I understand European national identity issues. As you stated the economic union is fine and stop there. Unfortunately, EU integration is a mixed bag of ideas currently. Strangely it is Europeans who drive insane ideas through not some foreign actors not familiar with specifics of the continent. It would be great if Brexit caused EU leadership to refocus their attention on economy instead of sovereignty and stop mixing the two.
If country X does not want immigrants Y then they should be able to say No Thank You and not admit any. However the same country X cannot treat EU passports differently based on what color they are. Individual should be able to finance a property in Italy with the loan taken in Germany using his property in Belgium as collateral. - that is what I call harmonized market. Currently my Belgian debit card is universally rejected by every POS in Germany I wonder if EU is really working on economic integration and not just giving lip service.
I am not going to write about issues such as Welfare tourism that could have been foreseen by a 15 year old, but here is more hidden issue for example and why EU is not being governed very intelligently.
An individual who is a family member of EU national is prohibited to work in any EU country other than where he is currently reside. There is no EU wide residency permits (some integration this is). Such individual if loses his job would become a public charge in the country of his residency (welfare, unemployment , healthcare) -all paid by taxpayers. He/she would be prohibited by EU laws to take any offer of employment from another country (unless employer is willing to provide work permit and in some cases visa support-like for any foreigner). So that unemployed family member most likely will choose to remain on public support until his 4-6 years of uninterrupted residency requirement is fulfilled and then he/she can finally apply for national citizenship while all of us will be paying for him to do absolutely nothing. The law is currently incentivizes for such individuals to NOT work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

Just get Google Fi.

That would be a US provider that has no extra charges for international use (although speeds are limited to 3g outside of the us).

I would have to move back to US to do that. Will wait for US to come to EU and teach these wankers how to take money out of customer's pockets legally.
Edited by Medwed - 7/11/16 at 7:01am
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