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Brexit - Page 23

post #331 of 383
Crossed 3 EU borders today. all 3 had border patrol and check-stations. Thanks to my White-privilege I was waved through. EU is working for me.
post #332 of 383
Well said Fuuma. You have to be seriously illiterate to believe that democracy can be simplistically equated to voting. The true meaning of democracy is perhaps the oldest debate in political philosophy.

It also strikes me as blindingly obvious that the quotation from the Guardian is designed to be arresting for journalistic purposes.
post #333 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

Well said Fuuma. You have to be seriously illiterate to believe that democracy can be simplistically equated to voting.

wow another person good at refuting strawmans

if you didn't even bother to read the articule why comment on this?
Quote:
Experiments with sortition have been successfully applied in the US, Australia, and the Netherlands. The most innovative country so far is certainly Ireland. In December 2012, a constitutional convention began work in order to revise several articles of the constitution of Ireland. Its members were not just a committee of MPs working behind closed doors, but a mixture of elected politicians and ordinary people: 33 elected politicians and 66 citizens, drafted by lot, from both Ireland and Northern Ireland. This group met one weekend per month for more than a year.

An independent research bureau put together the random group of 66 citizens, taking account of age, sex and place of birth. The diversity this produced was helpful when it came to discussing such subjects as same-sex marriage, the rights of women or the ban on blasphemy in the current constitution. However, they did not do all this alone: participants listened to experts and received input from other citizens (more than a thousand contributions came in on the subject of gay marriage). The decisions made by the convention did not have the force of law; the recommendations first had to be passed by the two chambers of the Irish parliament, then by the government and then in a referendum.

By talking to a diverse cross-section of Irish society, politicians could get further than they could have by just talking to each other. By exchanging views with elected officials, citizens could give much more relevant input than they could have in an election or a referendum.

What if this procedure had been applied in the UK last week? What if a random sample of citizens had a chance to learn from experts, listen to proposals, talk to each other and engage with politicians? What if a mixed group of elected and drafted citizens had thought the matter through? What if the rest of society could have had a chance to follow and contribute to their deliberations? What if the proposal this group would have come up with had been subjected to public scrutiny? Do we think a similarly reckless decision would have been taken?

here bolded out part for you,
Author basically makes a point that only if we had other system like sortition brexit would likely not have happen.

He also made a point earlier
Quote:
Referendums and elections are both arcane instruments of public deliberation. If we refuse to update our democratic technology, we may find the system is beyond repair; 2016 already risks becoming the worst year for democracy since 1933.

People don't vote the way I want(brexit/trump) = worst year for democracy since Hitler!!

You think this articule is fair and balanced discussion about our democracy?!! You're funny mate. Timing is also quite telling, even if the author didn't show his hand like he did.
post #334 of 383
The remain side have had 43 years in which to convince the majority of the British public to remain. Both the main party leaders were on the remain side (both are well documented euro sceptics who suddenly wanted to remain).

If it's so fucking great on mainland Europe, why the fuck are people literally risking their lives to get across it to reach the UK??
post #335 of 383
I was referring to the bolded quotation, but I had nonetheless read the whole article, and it makes no difference.

It's normal for people to question features of democracy immediately after votes that seem irrational and destructive. This has been going on since the sentence of Socrates to death.

Your attempt to characterise people who engage in this age-old debate as whinging sore losers is wrongheaded and inane.
post #336 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

I was referring to the bolded quotation, but I had nonetheless read the whole article, and it makes no difference.

It's normal for people to question features of democracy immediately after votes that seem irrational and destructive didn't turn out how they wanted it to. This has been going on since the sentence of Socrates to death.

Your attempt to characterise people who engage in this age-old debate as whinging sore losers is wrongheaded and inane completely on target.

This reads more true.

If people really wanted to question features of democracy it would be an ongoing discussion, but when it's always timed immediately after a vote that did not go how the chattering class wanted it to go? Well, that's just a little too transparent of a hissy fit.
post #337 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

I was referring to the bolded quotation, but I had nonetheless read the whole article, and it makes no difference.

It's normal for people to question features of democracy immediately after votes that seem irrational and destructive didn't turn out how they wanted it to. This has been going on since the sentence of Socrates to death.

Your attempt to characterise people who engage in this age-old debate as whinging sore losers is wrongheaded and inane completely on target.

This reads more true.

If people really wanted to question features of democracy it would be an ongoing discussion, but when it's always timed immediately after a vote that did not go how the chattering class wanted it to go? Well, that's just a little too transparent of a hissy fit.


Like the birther muslim dictator thing

post #338 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbernine View Post


Like the birther muslim dictator thing

LOL, lame attempt at equivalence.
post #339 of 383
>didn't turn out how they wanted it to

You see it in these childish terms because you simply don't have the intelligence or education to engage in discussions about political philosophy and political systems.
post #340 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post

>didn't turn out how they wanted it to

You see it in these childish terms because you simply don't have the intelligence or education to engage in discussions about political philosophy and political systems.

Well, I'm not going to argue with this as it's obviously true. You obviously, however, possess both of those in abundance AEB your well reasoned and supported insult as a rebut. As you seem to feel you're representative of said folks it certainly is puzzling why anyone would think you're a bunch of whinging sore losers, isn't it?
post #341 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshire pud View Post


If it's so fucking great on mainland Europe, why the fuck are people literally risking their lives to get across it to reach the UK??

Whaaaat? Did you misspelled "USA"?

Who the fuck wants to get across to UK except Romanian welfare tourists and Russian government thieves?
post #342 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

Whaaaat? Did you misspelled "USA"?

Who the fuck wants to get across to UK except Romanian welfare tourists and Russian government thieves?

Well, my American girlfriend and her two kids for starters smile.gif
post #343 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbernine View Post
 


Like the birther muslim dictator thing


or Bush v Gore, if you prefer

post #344 of 383

There it is 

post #345 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Well, I'm not going to argue with this as it's obviously true. You obviously, however, possess both of those in abundance AEB your well reasoned and supported insult as a rebut. As you seem to feel you're representative of said folks it certainly is puzzling why anyone would think you're a bunch of whinging sore losers, isn't it?

I've already attempted to draw out an actual discussion from your cretinous ilk, but you literally do not have the capacity to take the conversation above "you're a loser, nah nah na nah nah".

Playground language like "sore loser" simply has no relevance to a question of democratic principles. And yet you repeat the phrase, again and again and again, like a broken record, or like a boneheaded dullard with nothing of value or interest to say about the actual substantive issues that underly the vote.
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