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Brexit - Page 22

post #316 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

As I said, whether the Italian proposal is goo or bad is besides the point. The Italian government is being prevented from governing its own economy on a matter of vital economic importance and in the way it sees fit, by EU regulation. It may be that the Italians are wrong and Brussels is right, but that seems to me like a pretty clear loss of sovreignty over the second most vital national interest (after security).

LOLZ. Of course it is. This was a central issue in designing the union which would have a single currency and CB but multiple fiscal authorities. It would make it impossible for the CB to use monetary devices to do its job of steering the economy. The limits on the EU governments' fiscal policies was a critical factor that was necessary to make the EU work and everyone understood it before they signed on.
post #317 of 383
Well this isn't really an issue of fiscal (or monetary) policy. At least not directly. But I am only pointing out that the EU does, in fact, result in the surrender of a tremendous amount of sovereignty and it is not merely administrative. The effects are meaningful.
post #318 of 383
post #319 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

rotflmao.gif

this gem is from Die Wächter ehmm I mean The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/why-elections-are-bad-for-democracy

This is indeed the central problem with representative democracies, as pointed out by countless thinkers. It is a reasonable point, wtf are you on about?

note: I'm talking about the bolded part in your quote: "reducing democracy to voting" .
post #320 of 383
You can accept 100% of the criticisms of democracy and still acknowledge the absurdity of Wotj's bolded quote.

The salient feature of democracy is voting, and has been since Greek times.

The charitable interpretation of quotes like the one above is that the authors are conflating democracy with good governance and civil society.

The uncharitable interpretation is that they want to selectively illegitimate any policies they don't personally agree with.
Edited by Pennglock - 7/6/16 at 8:54am
post #321 of 383
As long as the populace is comprised of well-armed freemen, things generally turn out alright.
post #322 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

The uncharitable interpretation is that they want to selectively illegitimate any policies they don't personally agree with.

and frankly this seems to be a recurring theme in post-brexit backlash
democracy is good, but only if people vote the way they want. It seems there are two types of fascists, fascists and anti-fascists.
Edited by wojt - 7/6/16 at 9:08am
post #323 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

As long as the populace is comprised of well-armed freemen, things generally turn out alright.

 

Then it's a good thing that the UK protects the right to keep and be-.... um, what's that you say?

 

How Gun Control Made England The 'Most Violent Country In Europe'

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/09/24/how-gun-control-made-england-the-most-violent-country-in-europe/

post #324 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

and frankly this seems to be a recurring theme in post-brexit backlash
democracy is good, but only if people vote the way they want. It seems there are two types of fascists, fascists and anti-fascists.

The elites in the media, academia, and other sinecures want to have it both ways.

Democracy is the best thing that's ever happened to the intellectual class, because it's given them more control over the state than any competing system. Walter Lippman formalized this relationship back in the 20s:

> In democracy, public opinion controls the state.
> The role of the intellectual is to shape public opinion.
> Ergo, intellectuals control the state (with a bit of a time-lag, allowing the Ivy League consensus to permeate through the other controlling organs.)

So on the (extremely rate) occasions when the will of the peasant is in opposition the elite consensus, intellectuals know better than to challenge democracy directly. That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and we get amusing contortions such as "reducing democracy to voting".
post #325 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCarraway View Post


Then it's a good thing that the UK protects the right to keep and be-.... um, what's that you say?

How Cheap Alcohol & A Shitty School System Made England The 'Most Violent Country In Europe'



ftfy
post #326 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

As I said, whether the Italian proposal is goo or bad is besides the point. The Italian government is being prevented from governing its own economy on a matter of vital economic importance and in the way it sees fit, by EU regulation. It may be that the Italians are wrong and Brussels is right, but that seems to me like a pretty clear loss of sovreignty over the second most vital national interest (after security).

In that interpretation yes, you could call it a loss of sovereignty. It wasn't taken from them though, they knowingly and willingly voted for accepting the state aid rules that came with the common market. In essence with each treaty a country signs they sign away a bit of sovereignty, the US signed nafta and gave away a bit of sovereignty to raise import taxes on Mexico and Canada. If you do a decision will be made by a binational panel. TPP kinda does the same, it removes the ability to raise barriers to trade within a defined area.
I see that wojt, lighthouse and carraway have become more active in this thread to raise the standard of discourse, good thing I'm off for vacation for 2 weeks smile.gif
post #327 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

I see that wojt, lighthouse and carraway have become more active in this thread to raise the standard of discourse, good thing I'm off for vacation for 2 weeks smile.gif

puzzled.gif

you need that vacation
post #328 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

good thing I'm off for vacation for 2 weeks smile.gif

because work = hanging out on StyFo?

post #329 of 383
Old, grumpy Pat Condell explained why old people voted leave. I love this guy icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #330 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

You can accept 100% of the criticisms of democracy and still acknowledge the absurdity of Wotj's bolded quote.

The salient feature of democracy is voting, and has been since Greek times.

The charitable interpretation of quotes like the one above is that the authors are conflating democracy with good governance and civil society.

The uncharitable interpretation is that they want to selectively illegitimate any policies they don't personally agree with.

I haven't read the article and don't care about it one iota. However, while the salient feature of REPRESENTATIVE democracy is voting, this is not the case for direct democracy where the salient feature would be the participation of citizens in deliberations (debates AND decision). The expression "democratic exercise reduced to voting" comes about by seeing that what citizens are essentially doing is voting every few yrs for who amongst the dominant class won't be following their interests.

http://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

What I was merely saying is that it is a very common critique of representative democracy, quite often worded in the same way and that I am surprised people here lack familiarity with it and dismiss the whole thing out of hand as some sort of anti-Brexit trick.
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