or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Brexit - Page 20

post #286 of 383
Apparently, to Nigel Farage, all that mattered was voting to leave the EU. The actual leaving part is inconsequential.
post #287 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Apparently, to Nigel Farage, all that mattered was voting to leave the EU. The actual leaving part is inconsequential.

Well, I think not an inconsequential number of folks hoped for a close vote that was ultimately to stay in the EU. Many folks just wanted the threat to help the UK continue to get special treatment while staying in the single market.
post #288 of 383
Digesting Brexit over the last week, it seems like most commentary (on both sides) is conflating 2 concepts into a single phenomenon -- political integration and market connectivity.

Neo liberals prefer to have both integration and connectivity. Ethno-nationalists prefer to have neither. Both of these sides implicitly assume they come only in a package deal.

But in the 2x2 matrix of high/low integration v connectivity, there are 2 more diagnal boxes that exist. Low integration + high connectivity would be the more librarian solution. (Opposite to this would be full communism.)

In working out a compromise between the two dominant factions, I am kind of hoping the UK ends up landing on the best of all world's. Free movement of trade without monolithic government.
post #289 of 383
The EU has almost no politcal integration btw, this is a myth (united states of Europe). The problem of EU is precisely that it offers no political project, it is merely a managerial neoliberal endeavour. If you listen to a far-right thinker like Alain de Benoist he'll tell you he is FOR Europe but a politically integrated one able to face global problems and preserve its peculiar cultural tradition so opinions tend to vary even for "ethno-nationalists". Of course genetic testing correlated with Nationality will tell us who should remain in Europe and which countries to kick out due to their gene-defects leading to crime or bad haircuts so I don't see why we should have this discussion.
post #290 of 383
Bad hair cuts. Bye rural Sweden and your hockey hair.
post #291 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

The EU has almost no politcal integration btw, this is a myth (united states of Europe). The problem of EU is precisely that it offers no political project, it is merely a managerial neoliberal endeavour. If you listen to a far-right thinker like Alain de Benoist he'll tell you he is FOR Europe but a politically integrated one able to face global problems and preserve its peculiar cultural tradition so opinions tend to vary even for "ethno-nationalists".

The EU has little integration, but still too much for English tastes as they revealed last week. This is a deep current at the heart of the Anglo/continental divide. Maybe the most apparent example was in the amount of autonomy the English allowed their colonies compared to the continental empires.
post #292 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

The EU has little integration, but still too much for English tastes as they revealed last week. This is a deep current at the heart of the Anglo/continental divide. Maybe the most apparent example was in the amount of autonomy the English allowed their colonies compared to the continental empires.

Did you even catch what most of the votes were about? They wanted to stop immigration, something impossible to have without the common market. As Fuuma indicated, even though the EU has a parliament it can only act on economic measures, and only a limited set at that (social economic ones are still very much the domain of the nation states).

There is a current backlash toward the european commission, as indicated by Merkel telling Juncker to step down as she sees him as part of the problem. And I have to admit, his brand of power politics is not really advisory on a continent that is dealing with a resurgence of nationalism.

Personally I've been talking about this with friends a lot as there are quite a few things happening at the same time. For one a lot of people are taking the relative economic stability for granted, even though 2008 was tough it was relatively contained to loss of jobs. They reminisce about the good old days of the guilder (in my countries case) but seem to forget that when we were still managing our own currency it was still tied to the deutschmark and subject to harsh swings, my mother still shudders thinking about the 9% mortgage she had to pay in the early nineties.

In addition, in an environment where the usual levers for economic growth have been taken out of the national government hands by the EU(currency devaluation, market protection, direct government intervention in the market) they seemed at a loss about what to do. As a rule they either defaulted to neoliberal flexibilization of the jobs market and promoting free trade in some countries (NL, DE, PL, SP et al) or downright lethargy in terms of the economy (FR, IT). All seem to have forgotten that the bulk of their voters have regular jobs, which are under pressure with these measures. Yet somehow they couldn't find the creativity to give something back to them. Even though I do believe that in macro economic terms the country is best off by these measures, I am advocating a tax cut for the lowest incomes and steadying of welfare, perhaps paid for by raising taxes on the highest incomes and corporate taxes, in unison. (this last bit the commission is looking into by putting a floor on corporate taxes)
They should be getting something in return and should help steady the voters a bit, and hopefully push back the nationalist parties..
post #293 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

The EU has almost no political integration btw, this is a myth (united states of Europe). The problem of EU is precisely that it offers no political project, it is merely a managerial neoliberal endeavour.

It depends on how you define "political", but for all intents and purposes I think that the current level of political integration is already pretty high. High enough that there are Harvard scholars who devote their lives entirely to understanding the puzzle of why this collection of states has broken the rules of gravity and pooled sovereignty in a historically unprecedented way. I mean, the EU is clearly much more than a neoliberal FTA already. In fact, I'd hardly call it neoliberal, considering it sets quite strict limits on policy areas that a lot of Americans would consider sacrosanct. It's definitely economically liberal, but it's also very paternalistic.

Anyway, I personally wouldn't be able to ascertain where exactly the dividing line between economics and politics lies. I don't see why the line should lie between monetary and fiscal integration. Both are economic, and both are also political.
Edited by Loathing - 7/4/16 at 2:52pm
post #294 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

The EU has almost no politcal integration btw, this is a myth (united states of Europe). The problem of EU is precisely that it offers no political project, it is merely a managerial neoliberal endeavour. If you listen to a far-right thinker like Alain de Benoist he'll tell you he is FOR Europe but a politically integrated one able to face global problems and preserve its peculiar cultural tradition so opinions tend to vary even for "ethno-nationalists". Of course genetic testing correlated with Nationality will tell us who should remain in Europe and which countries to kick out due to their gene-defects leading to crime or bad haircuts so I don't see why we should have this discussion.

Everything EU does lately is to enhance political integration and delegate power away from national goverments, it happens slowly yes but ultimately that's the goal of current leadership. Many people on the right are for common market, but not for political union which is both likely to fail(europeans are more tribal than many leftists would like to believe) and is long term dangerous to sovereignty of nation states. That along with immigration are two biggest issues for euroskeptics.
post #295 of 383
9% is nothing in the 80's we hit 20+% under the potato diet (that what was the government called it). 5-10% was common within this decade.

You should be able to demand, that people imployed in a country are paid a wage which makes it possible to live within said country. The current EE migration does the exact opposite and actually push wages down to a level below welfare. There should also be some kind of limit to when you are able to collect welfare to stop welfare tourism, the same goes for child benefits. Which is currently obtainable eventhough the child doesn't live in the country and the parents can then collect 2-3 child benifit cheques.

The EU has a lot of extra things such as military, migration, europol and all kinds of odd common rules about farming etc. if we/you just want the financial aspects you are looking for EFTA.

The big welfare states like Scandinavia, UK etc. are currently buckling under the influx of people who are essentially in poor health and cost an insane amount of money each. Britain is expecting that the amount of people with diabetes will increase with 60% over the coming years.

In my opinion the EU should go back towards EFTA setup with Europol on top, as the rest is only an extra level of bureaucracy. The big richer states are also sending a vast amount of money each year in development aid to the new poorer countries. The new countries are just not interested in the rest f.x. Taking their share if the migrants, handling all their gypsies etc.
post #296 of 383
Thread Starter 
Just FYI, the US and Canada had mortgage rates approaching 20% in the same time frame.
post #297 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

9% is nothing in the 80's we hit 20+% under the potato diet (that what was the government called it). 5-10% was common within this decade.

You should be able to demand, that people imployed in a country are paid a wage which makes it possible to live within said country. The current EE migration does the exact opposite and actually push wages down to a level below welfare. There should also be some kind of limit to when you are able to collect welfare to stop welfare tourism, the same goes for child benefits. Which is currently obtainable eventhough the child doesn't live in the country and the parents can then collect 2-3 child benifit cheques.

The EU has a lot of extra things such as military, migration, europol and all kinds of odd common rules about farming etc. if we/you just want the financial aspects you are looking for EFTA.

The big welfare states like Scandinavia, UK etc. are currently buckling under the influx of people who are essentially in poor health and cost an insane amount of money each. Britain is expecting that the amount of people with diabetes will increase with 60% over the coming years.

In my opinion the EU should go back towards EFTA setup with Europol on top, as the rest is only an extra level of bureaucracy. The big richer states are also sending a vast amount of money each year in development aid to the new poorer countries. The new countries are just not interested in the rest f.x. Taking their share if the migrants, handling all their gypsies etc.

Then why not help wages go up, or tax them less? The unions here have been very destructive in that they only take care of their older cadres and stiffing the younger ones, and at the same time only targeting industries where they already had it good.. Migration has indeed put downward pressure on them, but thus far our respective governments have done very little to counteract this or even helped driving them down. Our welfare states are a different problem, where the problem actually lies quite close to part of the brexit problem as well. Most of the welfare has been build up when all of Western Europe had a population dividend from the boomer generation. It was easy to pay for very generous welfare when an outsized part of the population was working and paying into it. Now that that generation has largely retired we are suddenly facing an increase in payouts and decrease in taxes. Part of the influx of Eastern European workers actually helps with this problem, as indicated by the net contribution number the UK has from European workers. The boomer gen is also one of the most political active ones, so it's very hard to tell them that what they paid for for others isn't fair to ask from the current working generations. So, welfare might need to come down a tad and wages need to come up, seems like something a national government could create policy for.

Fwiw, there is only cooperation on military matters and that's also what Interpol is. Not really dictated by the EC but agreed upon by the states. Migration is part of the common market, unless you are talking about migration from outside of the EU. And btw, a lot of those poles are going back because wages back home are going up quickly due to a shortage in workers there..

Scandinavia and the U.K. Both created a welfare state aimed at keeping the population growth above that 2.1 number back in the day, whilst keeping the poors happy with a handout while they focused on the mid incomes. If you make it possible to live better of three child welfare payouts then of a low income job (uk) then you can expect them to breed and make use of that system. Again, this is a problem not of migrants, although it's infinitely easier to blame them, but a problem of policy. One of the national governments I might add, not the EU.

And lastly, the EC has put forth a proposal re migrants Eastern Europe. See solidarity fine
post #298 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

Migration is part of the common market, unless you are talking about migration from outside of the EU. And btw, a lot of those poles are going back because wages back home are going up quickly due to a shortage in workers there..

That's not really true, prospects for most people who left are still pretty bad here especially those from smaller towns or without a job in certain market niches. We are far behind UK in living standard and wages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

And lastly, the EC has put forth a proposal re migrants Eastern Europe. See solidarity fine

If this will happen, it will give rise to a fued and will end up bolstering our goverment, slovaks, czechs and ofc Orban. There are two problems with migrants situation and EE. They don't want to be here and we don't want them here. So even if we admit our share half of them will escape to Germany first chance they get. EC would be smart not to push EE in this matter.
post #299 of 383
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

Scandinavia and the U.K. Both created a welfare state aimed at keeping the population growth above that 2.1 number back in the day, whilst keeping the poors happy with a handout while they focused on the mid incomes. If you make it possible to live better of three child welfare payouts then of a low income job (uk) then you can expect them to breed and make use of that system. Again, this is a problem not of migrants, although it's infinitely easier to blame them, but a problem of policy. One of the national governments I might add, not the EU.

This conversation is deemed racist in the US.
post #300 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

This conversation is deemed racist in the US.
I might have altered my language a bit to please my intended audience.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Events, Power and Money