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Brexit - Page 11

post #151 of 383
^ hey, I think fuuma reposted this from my colleague who is mysteriously Facebook friends with fuuma in some sort of Montreal alliance. In any case, I'll just cut-and-paste my response to this article on that colleague's Facebook wall:

I think what needs to be explained further is the relationship between the actual "elites" (i.e., upper-echelon corporate and political leaders) and groups that don't necessarily grab the same share of the money but reap a more diffuse set of benefits (urban living, Warby Parker glasses, the occasional overpriced cocktail or five, whatever). This article discusses "[e]stablishment journalistic outlets" as being "fully integrated into elite institutions." If that integration is obvious at some levels (ownership of media outlets and concomitant pressure to publish or not publish certain things), it's also more complex at others (why journalists who don't get paid much still think of themselves as having some sort of cultural prestige nonetheless). Obviously, those of us who are academics play a similar role--not getting super rich, but benefitting nonetheless (both materially and in some more nebulous cultural sense) through our "integration" with elite global capital or whatever.

I think the cases of both journalists and academics suggest that the discourses of the elite are being disseminated by people who are both invested in those discourses but also skeptical, critical, and resentful of those same elite interests. Maybe this pattern of critical-but-doing-it-anyways goes even further in revealing why something like Brexit support gets reported the way it does. If the link between economic interests and cultural sensibilities is already distorted in the lives of the people disseminating the dominant discourse, then that distortion is fun-house-mirror-projected in accounts of other groups.
post #152 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but since public response was overwhelming against the protesters and with the police in 1968,* "direct democracy" in that situation would have produced the same (or worse) results. (* 71% of Americans supported the city's actions)

 

Warning: derail response! (Click to show)

my point is that while a solid majority of Dems voted for anti-war nominees, Daley and Johnson anointed Humphrey, who was the plurality nominee to that point but had nowhere near a majority of delegates. the delegation process at that time was to separate voters from outcomes in back rooms and among party elites. 

 

to be clear my point really has nothing to do with the police riots themselves (which were utterly illegal, btw) or the public's reaction to them (your figure of 71% approval is irrelevant, how many of those responses were from people who were registered democrats and had a vested interest in the outcome of the convention?) 

 

and if the public looked so favorably on the outcomes, why did Dems immediately begin an overhaul of delegation to allow for more transparency? 

 

 

to get back to the thread more directly, anybody who dismisses mechanisms of direct democracy as simply "not workable" is probably going to be inclined to misunderstanding. the entire point of referenda etc is to short circuit the establishment in a complementary role to more traditional representation. to be fair the worst of direct democracy that i've observed is a tendency towards populist sentiments (and the occasional special interest smoke-blower) but at best it's an important relief valve of self-governance and a check against corruption. dunno why that's so difficult for some folks to grasp.

post #153 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshire pud View Post

Thanks for your opinion

I think we will end up semi-nationalising steel again To support British car makers and save Port Talbot, I think they will increase the government stake that has been on the table from 25%

We have seen the decline in the Yorkshire City of Sheffield over the last 40 odd years of EU shenanigans

Such a shame frown.gif
Unless you want to end up with the type of problems Alfa Romeo had in the 80s I would advise against using your steel mills for the car industry, and I'm only slightly exaggerating here. Otherwise, yeah you would have to leave the eu for your government to be able to nationalize or heavily subsidize it.

It's a pity, but 30 years of resisting restructuring and moving toward higher quality goods have led up to this situation. From a business perspective I would say take the pain, restructure, modernize and renegotiate with the unions. They are with their backs against the wall anyway. But that was before Friday, the only course now is bankruptcy.

This is relevant too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36628918
The tariff negotiations are going to be brutal, as all EU countries will want that type of investment. They won't move easily, but when a car manufacturer moves it is a move for decades to come, with very big ramifications for the first to third tier suppliers in the country. Note the knock on employment in the second article. Again, not saying they will leave immediately but this referendum has put their investments on hold for the coming years, they will prefer to invest in factories on the mainland. And just so you know, they do move:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0JW1I020141218
This was partially overcapacity and partially due to too high wages(unions), which are about half in Valencia. The U.K. Auto industry has managed to avoid this and thrive by modernizing all the time, but don't you think a 10% hit in margins will change that picture drastically?
anyway, I can keep on picking industries (r&d is also a fun one, as the uk received 3bln more than it paid in from 2007 - 2013, but I'm sure that your government will pick up that tab as well) but it won't matter.

Friday you basically threatened to burn down the house to get rid of the mice. Regardless whether you do it or not, the businesses renting rooms at the place will reconsider their stay..
post #154 of 383
Thread Starter 
post #155 of 383
Brexit result is a proof that a referendum valve sometimes gets clogged by unexpected outcome and then a bigger valve is needed to make sure that electorate would swallow the inevitable negation of their collective will.
post #156 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Very interesting read.

Indeed, tnx fuuma
post #157 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

Unless you want to end up with the type of problems Alfa Romeo had in the 80s I would advise against using your steel mills for the car industry, and I'm only slightly exaggerating here. Otherwise, yeah you would have to leave the eu for your government to be able to nationalize or heavily subsidize it.

It's a pity, but 30 years of resisting restructuring and moving toward higher quality goods have led up to this situation. From a business perspective I would say take the pain, restructure, modernize and renegotiate with the unions. They are with their backs against the wall anyway. But that was before Friday, the only course now is bankruptcy.

This is relevant too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36628918
The tariff negotiations are going to be brutal, as all EU countries will want that type of investment. They won't move easily, but when a car manufacturer moves it is a move for decades to come, with very big ramifications for the first to third tier suppliers in the country. Note the knock on employment in the second article. Again, not saying they will leave immediately but this referendum has put their investments on hold for the coming years, they will prefer to invest in factories on the mainland. And just so you know, they do move:
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0JW1I020141218
This was partially overcapacity and partially due to too high wages(unions), which are about half in Valencia. The U.K. Auto industry has managed to avoid this and thrive by modernizing all the time, but don't you think a 10% hit in margins will change that picture drastically?
anyway, I can keep on picking industries (r&d is also a fun one, as the uk received 3bln more than it paid in from 2007 - 2013, but I'm sure that your government will pick up that tab as well) but it won't matter.

Friday you basically threatened to burn down the house to get rid of the mice. Regardless whether you do it or not, the businesses renting rooms at the place will reconsider their stay..

Thanks again for your opinion

It reads well but I remain unconvinced

We are such a big market for VAG/BMW/Merc (who have a British world champion driving for them), that the Germans will do a deal

Jag/ Landrover are doing OK exporting "rot-boxes" to other markets outside the EU

I also represent Nissan in a very small and insignificant way and the 45% of vehicles they build using British Steel seem rust resistant to me.
Sunderland where they are based was the first kick in the teeth for the remain camp???

Would a MINI really have the same appeal with anything but a Union Jack stuck on the roof and the knowledge that your British Icon was built by people who don't drink tea??

ps, it was Lancia that got canned over here, we are secretly quite fond of Alfas smile.gif
post #158 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

EU will come down on Britain hard, they'll start from a position of no more common market and no circulation, this will take yrs though so the most likely scenario is they never leave, new EU pact etc.


Considering the large age divide in voting, those who voted to leave will start to die off anyways. Nice little gift to leave behind your grandchildren. I'm sure they will be remembered fondly for this.



Giving adults a vote was a mistake, since we're at that cancer patients shouldn't have the vote either, they don't have to live with their decision.
post #159 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roycru View Post

The Brexit vote, 52%-48%, is similar to the popular vote in the 2012 United States Presidential Election, which was 51%-47% (there were more than two candidates).


Some differences are that the losers in the United States didn't petition for a do over, nor did the states that voted for the losing side have referendums to leave the United States.


Those fortunate enough to live in Democracies should accept that democracy works, even when the other side wins.


Switzerland does not belong to the EU and has none of the problems that some EU member countries have.  The British people have voted to make their country more like Switzerland and less like Greece.

I've voted in a "do over" election in the States. The referendum passed, and it turned out that the government either couldn't or wouldn't implement it, so they came back and basically said, "are you sure you want what you said you want"?

Incidentally, I voted "no" the first time and "yes" the second time because it irritated me that the government was basically trying to subvert the democratic process because it didn't want to do what the people demanded. I still didn't think the policy was a great idea, but I had a real problem with the idea that the government was basically calling do-overs until it got the outcome it wanted.

I also don't think that a second round is somehow more legitimate than the first vote.
post #160 of 383
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/26/brexit-leaders-are-walking-back-some-of-their-biggest-promises/

facepalm.gif
post #161 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Giving adults a vote was a mistake, since we're at that cancer patients shouldn't have the vote either, they don't have to live with their decision.

Yes, the point was they shouldn't be allowed to vote. rolleyes.gif
post #162 of 383


"you can keep your doctor..."

 

salesman sell. eventualities become probabilities. them's politics.

post #163 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Giving adults a vote was a mistake, since we're at that cancer patients shouldn't have the vote either, they don't have to live with their decision.

Yes, the point was they shouldn't be allowed to vote. rolleyes.gif

what other point it made?
post #164 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshire pud View Post

Thanks again for your opinion

It reads well but I remain unconvinced

We are such a big market for VAG/BMW/Merc (who have a British world champion driving for them), that the Germans will do a deal

Jag/ Landrover are doing OK exporting "rot-boxes" to other markets outside the EU

I also represent Nissan in a very small and insignificant way and the 45% of vehicles they build using British Steel seem rust resistant to me.
Sunderland where they are based was the first kick in the teeth for the remain camp???

Would a MINI really have the same appeal with anything but a Union Jack stuck on the roof and the knowledge that your British Icon was built by people who don't drink tea??

ps, it was Lancia that got canned over here, we are secretly quite fond of Alfas smile.gif

The Market outside the UK is quite large for the Germans as well ;-) and, from my end I would miss Jaguars on the road. Having grown up with a line of Daimler double sixes spanning the 80s and 90s I would say that there was some commitment to the brand.. Anyway, that's not going to happen, worst is that they become a lot more expensive on the mainland, and germans/French and Italians likewise on the island.

Btw, there are good steel plants in the UK, however the majority is just low grade..
And btw, the southern part of the Netherlands is quite happy building minis for BMW as well..

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you that this is a catastrophe for businesses with a long term perspective, and very bad for the UK in particular. We will see how it pans out. At the moment I'm not even convinced that you'll find a PM willing to pull the trigger..
post #165 of 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Giving adults a vote was a mistake, since we're at that cancer patients shouldn't have the vote either, they don't have to live with their decision.

Our children have to live with it though

Do you really think we would let a group of "facebook controlled zombies" vote for whatever the government/elite tell them?

If you were being treated for cancer and the hospital couldn't afford the proper medicine, would you really let a group of socialist students/fuckwits vote to give the EU £300m a week to spend on making laws about how straight bananas should be, and what age it's safe for a child to inflate a rubber fucking balloon??

We have dealt the EU and the robber barons a lethal blow last week, sit back and watch it die, the young will thank us for this show of defiance one day.
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