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Tell Me About Law School

Huntsman

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Lately I've spent a lot of time working with our corporate IP lawyer on my patents, and in speaking with him have become interested in IP law to the extent that I am seriously considering it as a possibility for my future career. I like the idea of being able to use my BSME degree and knowledge of engineering in a way that I wouldn't if I went MBA and into a pure business or finance position. Law would almost certainly put me in a better financial position than continuing in the engineering track with an M. Eng degree and possibly getting into an engineering management job in a decade or so. I would also be free of getting that M. Eng, which will be a three year misery that I have been dreading.

Of course I'm going to do much research and if I go this way it will be a year to 18 mos. out. But I am looking for some information about law school (and to a lesser extent life as a lawyer) - what should I be thinking about, are there any special admissions pitfalls, can you ever get any funding, what schools would you recommend, and the great question, what do you now know that you wish you knew? Certainly any other wisdom you wish to pass along I am happy to hear.

The only thing I do know is that the LSAT will determine my fate.

Lay it on me, gents.
 

DNW

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A few thoughts:

1. IP lawyers are in great demand. IP litigation is huge, and growing.
2. Law school is completely different from the other disciplines.
3. There's a lot of reading.
4. There's a lot of writing.
5. The reading and writing are boring as hell, unless you're interested in the subject.
6. Law school politics will suck the life out of you. Stay out of it.
7. First year is the most important year.
8. First year's summer internship will largely influence your career path.
9. You will become very specilized after law school is done with you.
10. There's a reason why people think lawyers are assholes--mainly because we are.
 

Joel_Cairo

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Originally Posted by DarkNWorn
5. The reading and writing are boring as hell, unless you're interested in the subject.

just out of curiosity, can you give an example of this "boring as hell, unless" kind of material? I've often wondered what the day-in-day out of Law school workload is, academically. I always just kinda imagined you all read the Constitution over and over, read some SCOTUS decisions, a little philosophy in there, and then a bunch of Law & Order scripts or something.

Actually, maybe this'll be easier: Hey current Law School guys reading this thread, what is it you should be reading right now?
 

JohnnyLaw

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Well, I have a law degree from a Canadian school and I know that these things are very different in the U.S., but I imagine there are similarities.

As to what DarkNWorn said:

1. Maybe
2. Not as much as you'd think
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Completely disagree
9. Probably
10. Maybe

Expect it to be tedious at times. It's a demanding field of study and the workload is heavy. The reading material is generally mind-numbing.

A large percentage of students will drop out or be kicked out after the first year (15-20%). It's important to do well your first year because it's not going to get easier and it's hard to raise a low average.

Anyone can do well if they prepare their classes as recommended and do all of the required work. It's like any other field - Effort is rewarded.

Law faculties are full of rich obnoxious frat boys but they're easy to avoid.

All of this leads up to writing the bar exam, which was one of the most stressful experiences I can remember.

Very few students here (5-10% maybe) manage to get an internship the first summer and most will not work in a law firm until they article. It's not a big deal. Also, since you don't specialize until after you graduate and start working, you can always re-orient yourself.

It's a very competitive profession and there will be a lot of pressure to perform as a student and later on as a lawyer. Don't let it stress you out and don't think that you're a failure unless you get into a top school, graduate at the top of your class, get an internship at a major firm, etc. There is a lot more to the profession than being a big-shot at a major firm. That is the fastest way to get to #10 on DarkNWorn's list. There are many more honest, modest, altruistic lawyers out there than you think.

Good luck.
 

solipsist

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A few more thoughts...

1. Geography. Consider whether you want to go national or regional-- this will influence your choice of law school greatly. If you are 100% committed to a particular region you should consider the local law schools, if you are unsure then you might limit yourself to US News & World Report top 15-20 (with a few exceptions).

2. Funding. Yes, some law schools do offer tuition breaks/financial aid. From my experience (albeit limited), if you are qualified for a more "prestigious" school, willing to take a step down in "prestige", the less "prestigious" school will pay you something.

3. Time. If you want to do well, law school is amazingly time consuming -- for the first year, 6+ hrs (after 4+ hrs of class) per day, every day. It slows a bit after the 1st year. As a very general rule, first year grades (based upon one 3-4 hr test at the end of the semester) make or break your complete career trajectory.

4. Long-term economic prospects. Depending on your region, the persons making pretty decent money are those who finish from top schools or at the top of their classes at other schools. There are many recent law school graduates with loads of loans, but very low salary. There have been a few articles on this in the news lately (schools misrepresenting exactly how many students find employment, etc.). That said, at the top the pay is fairly decent (not close to the same league as IBanking, etc., though).

4. Quality of Life. Both in law school and once your out, this can be pretty low at times. (Again, a lot of this is region specific). If you are seeking to avoid a masters b/c of 3 years of misery, law school might not be much different.

5. What I Wish I Knew: How many lawyers absolutely hate being a lawyer, and how many try to get out of the profession within the first 2-4 years. Although, I don't know that it would have changed my mind.

HTH
 

solipsist

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Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo
just out of curiosity, can you give an example of this "boring as hell, unless" kind of material? I've often wondered what the day-in-day out of Law school workload is, academically. I always just kinda imagined you all read the Constitution over and over, read some SCOTUS decisions, a little philosophy in there, and then a bunch of Law & Order scripts or something.
Its been a bit, but if I remember correctly, the first year load is something like Constitutional Law; Civil Procedure (rules of federal trial courts: pre-trial procedures, depositions, which court has jurisdiction, etc.); Property (land/chattel ownership); Torts (physical, emotional injuries); Contracts; Legal Writing; Criminal Law.... I'm probably missing something. Read a few cases from each every day (dating from 1700 to present). Wash, rinse, repeat.
 

JohnnyLaw

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I've often wondered what the day-in-day out of Law school workload is, academically.
I can tell you that. Let's say that the class is Contract Law.

I would have to read the appropriate sections of the Quebec Civil Code that relate to whatever type of contract we are talking about that day (sale, lease, etc.). This could be anywhere from 10 to 200 articles.

I would have to read cases suggested by the professor concerning certain specific concepts. Generally 2-5 cases for a day. Cases can vary from 5 to 50 or more pages in length. I would summarize these cases for later reference and to memorize for the final exam.

I would have to read certain chapters of the textbook/reference book we are given to clarify the course material.

Also, in most classes I would have a series of problems to solve. Generally we are given scenarios that could happen and have to answer questions as to how we would deal with them - what the applicable legal principles are, that kind of thing.

I would have 5 classes like this every week.

Total reading material can be several hundred pages a week, sometimes as much a thousand.
 

DNW

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Originally Posted by Joel_Cairo
just out of curiosity, can you give an example of this "boring as hell, unless" kind of material? I've often wondered what the day-in-day out of Law school workload is, academically. I always just kinda imagined you all read the Constitution over and over, read some SCOTUS decisions, a little philosophy in there, and then a bunch of Law & Order scripts or something.

Actually, maybe this'll be easier: Hey current Law School guys reading this thread, what is it you should be reading right now?


For example, one of the requirements for first year students is a legal research and writing class. You guess it, the bulk of the class is to teach you how to research and write in a lawyerly manner. The topic is preordained. You have no choice. So, for our class, we basically were given a fact pattern from a real criminal case--from which several issues were discussed, researched, and written about. Personally, criminal law is far from what I want to do, but I had no choice. So, for an entire semester, I had to research and write briefs on different criminal issues. And let me tell you, it's like pulling hair, strand-by-strand, from my already receding hairline.

On the other hand, if a class is enjoyable, you'll actually look forward to researching the issue and write on the matter. One of these classes is one on international law, taught by a UN-appointed prosecutor for war crimes. The assignments involved real life, current, international disputes between various countries. Writing those papers took significantly less time, and I felt like I was "in the zone" when I worked on them. Needless to say, I enjoyed that class a great deal, and received a good grade on it.

As for the reading, most came from cases and some from statutes. Many of my classes touched on Constitutional issues, but only on a fairly superficial level. However, I was required to take ConLaw 1 and 2, which dealt more in depth with the Constitution. I also took Federal Courts, which dealt more with structural issues in the Constitution.

Other than that, I mainly took classes that dealt with corporate and international law.

P.S. I've never completely watched a single episode of Law & Order.
 

Joel_Cairo

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Originally Posted by Law School
the first year load is something like Constitutional Law; Civil Procedure (rules of federal trial courts: pre-trial procedures, depositions, which court has jurisdiction, etc.); Property (land/chattel ownership); Torts (physical, emotional injuries); Contracts; Legal Writing; Criminal Law.... I'm probably missing something.
Read a few cases from each every day (dating from 1700 to present). Wash, rinse, repeat. Let's say that the class is Contract Law. I would have to read the appropriate sections of the Quebec Civil Code that relate to whatever type of contract we are talking about that day (sale, lease, etc.). This could be anywhere from 10 to 200 articles. I would have to read cases suggested by the professor concerning certain specific concepts. Generally 2-5 cases for a day. Cases can vary from 5 to 50 or more pages in length. I would summarize these cases for later reference and to memorize for the final exam. I would have to read certain chapters of the textbook/reference book we are given to clarify the course material. Also, in most classes I would have a series of problems to solve. Generally we are given scenarios that could happen and have to answer questions as to how we would deal with them - what the applicable legal principles are, that kind of thing. I would have 5 classes like this every week.
Total reading material can be several hundred pages a week, sometimes as much a thousand. For example, one of the requirements for first year students is a legal research and writing class. You guess it, the bulk of the class is to teach you how to research and write in a lawyerly manner. The topic is preordained. You have no choice. So, for our class, we basically were given a fact pattern from a real criminal case--from which several issues were discussed, researched, and written about. Personally, criminal law is far from what I want to do, but I had no choice. So, for an entire semester, I had to research and write briefs on different criminal issues. And let me tell you, it's like pulling hair, strand-by-strand, from my already receding hairline.
On the other hand, if a class is enjoyable, you'll actually look forward to researching the issue and write on the matter. One of these classes is one on international law, taught by a UN-appointed prosecutor for war crimes. The assignments involved real life, current, international disputes between various countries. Writing those papers took significantly less time, and I felt like I was "in the zone" when I worked on them. Needless to say, I enjoyed that class a great deal, and received a good grade on it.
As for the reading, most came from cases and some from statutes. Many of my classes touched on Constitutional issues, but only on a fairly superficial level. However, I was required to take ConLaw 1 and 2, which dealt more in depth with the Constitution. I also took Federal Courts, which dealt more with structural issues in the Constitution. Other than that, I mainly took classes that dealt with corporate and international law.

P.S. I've never completely watched a single episode of Law & Order, because there is so much reading to do


cold[1].gif
 

Joel_Cairo

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(^ I've never really found a good use for that smilie, but I think it works here)
 

Huntsman

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This is good stuff. Reading, analysis, and writing are things that I love (and I read absurdly fast, though I admit 1k pages/week is scary), whereas I hate doing partial differential equations and numerical methods. So even a comparable workload is ok if I don't hate it all the time.
Originally Posted by DarnNWorn
Personally, criminal law is far from what I want to do, but I had no choice. So, for an entire semester, I had to research and write briefs on different criminal issues. And let me tell you, it's like pulling hair, strand-by-strand, from my already receding hairline.
I know what you mean. This is what I expect for three years in M.E. Are there any opportunities for electives outside of the law? While we're at it, does anyone have a link to a 3-years' worth of curriculum scope and sequence? ~ Huntsman
 

samblau

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Law school is simply a pain **********.....you can get through reading horn books and never opening a text book if you are a logical person who can write. Knowing a subject cold for a three-hour BS exam is often times counter productive yet just one of those exams can potentially alter your future career path.

Law school "gunners" are a pain ********** and most of your profs wil be failed attorneys who couldn't handle the pressure of working and are now banking in off of unsuspecting 21 year olds or people going on their daddy's dime. A lot has been written about 1st year grads making $160k....its not right...but certainly no worse than half-wit profs making $100k+ for....here it comes....teaching 8 hours a week, the ABA max, usaully from lesson plans that will not change for the next decade (however the book they will undoubtedly co-author will be at editon 73 by the time you graduate). Many of your "friends" will feel free to use you in any way they can and people who you originally thought would fail out first year will wind up getting a better job than you because they knew the right hiring partner, were owed a favor or their lawyer spouse wrote their first-year brief to get them on to moot court/journal/law review etc. As for law school politics, the deans better hope that the ABA Prof. Responsibility rules continue to be waived for them.

Thats the bad. The good news is that SOME courses are intellectually stimulating. I recommend trying things out that you have no interest in just to see what they are like i.e. I loved food and drug law. You will meet SOME cool people...usually the ones that have o interest in law. You CAN make a difference i.e. volunteering at places that help poor defendants, single mothers etc. You MIGHT get the hang of it early, do well and get the $$$, athough that doesn't mean you will be happy.


I have the same advice for everyone, if you get in to a top 14 school go and pay the price if necessary. If you get in anywhere else go where you get the most $$$. Figure that your three years will wind up costing $200k when you are done. If you can stomache that than by all means knock yourself out. Work hard first year, thats pretty much all that matters, make sure you get on to a journal/moot court/law review no matter what it takes, make all the conections you can....basically do all the wonderful things that give lawyers the glowing reputation we have.
 

SoCal2NYC

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Originally Posted by Huntsman
Lately I've spent a lot of time working with our corporate IP lawyer on my patents,

I see Eric Glennie has rubbed off on you!
 

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