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Official Terrorist Bombing and Other Acts of Inhumanity Thread - Page 49

post #721 of 1309
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbernine View Post


"Get real 'referenced the intent of the post ,which was obviously ,why should we let anyone in if they don't serve our needs.God you are like a middle school debate club captain. You want to throw ideals out of your life go ahead ,it certainly explains why this world is going to hell in a hat,you should be proud of your contribution

Again, very rich. You of course are conveniently leaving out where I said, "Now, I'm not saying this should be the only metric, or applied to all applicants..." By doing this you think you're creating a pissing match, and as usual, pretending you're on the right side of history and standing on moral high ground. What you're really doing is proving my earlier statement correct in that any challenge to your pontifications will be met with a hissy fit like the above.
post #722 of 1309

setting aside the moral debate there is a reason why us immigration policy is what it is, officially and unofficially.

 

we may point to ideals or we can try to perceive the pragmatic reasons that i think often go unsaid. i assume that policy is driven by both. hopefully no one is kidding themselves that lawmakers and administrators/enforcement are guided by ideals alone.

post #723 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by double00 View Post

setting aside the moral debate there is a reason why us immigration policy is what it is, officially and unofficially.

we may point to ideals or we can try to perceive the pragmatic reasons that i think often go unsaid. i assume that policy is driven by both. hopefully no one is kidding themselves that lawmakers and administrators/enforcement are guided by ideals alone.

Honestly I don't believe there is either much idealism or pragmatism underlying US immigration over the last 30-50 years. It's pure political inertia.

There is such a time lag between the level of immigration and any sociopolitical effects from it, that immigration hasnt been a salient political issue in most voters' minds (outside of California.)

Not to say the entire situation isnt WEIRD. My daughters are born in the first generation that will be minority-majority, and by 2040 the entire country will be that way.

Whatever your opinion on the US' demographic transition-- good bad or indifferent-- the ramifications are tremendous, and it isnt a situation that has arisen from robust public debate and design. We've stumbled into it.
post #724 of 1309
del
post #725 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

Honestly I don't believe there is either much idealism or pragmatism underlying US immigration over the last 30-50 years. It's pure political inertia.

There is such a time lag between the level of immigration and any sociopolitical effects from it, that immigration hasnt been a salient political issue in most voters' minds (outside of California.)

Not to say the entire situation isnt WEIRD. My daughters are born in the first generation that will be minority-majority, and by 2040 the entire country will be that way.

Whatever your opinion on the US' demographic transition-- good bad or indifferent-- the ramifications are tremendous, and it isnt a situation that has arisen from robust public debate and design. We've stumbled into it.

I mean, that could be said for the entire existence of this country.
post #726 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post


not all but most of the victims of terrorism is by hands of muslims, in the high 90%(including iSIS and Boko Haram)

Why not put qoutas/ban some countries and save yourself trouble? You can't stop all attacks like the one in Nice. Ofc most muslims are people like everyone else, but the the drawbacks of 'bad' minority are quite severe. family>countrymen>outsiders at least for me.

 

First, I think we should look at violence or felonies committed by a group rather than terrorism.  I say this because some people call Sandy Hook, for example, terrorism, and others just call it a violent mass shooting.

 

Second, if we ban the immigration of a group, such as Muslims, does that prevent them from committing acts of terrorism in the United States?  I doubt it - they can come here as visitors and still perpetrate their acts or simply lie about their religion.

 

Third, France seems to have far more problems than other countries.  Don't you think that has something to do with how they treat Muslims there?  Doing things like banning head scarves in schools?  Basically forcing them into ghettos?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


We let them in because we had a very clear need for them. Why are we letting all these people in today?

Not to mention that once they started having integration problems, we cut off the tap. Remember? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

 

I believe my proposal by definition requires us to "need" said immigrants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post


We can't agree that the Klan and Islam are not comparable threats?
We aren't advocating for discrimination based on religion. We are advocating for limiting or stopping the systematic importing of people with radical beliefs who are slaughtering people all over the world, and the only way to do that is through a generalized approach because it's impossible to distinguish the good from the bad. It just so happens that Islam has a monopoly on the most violent and oppressive ideology.

 

The Klan and ISIS aren't comparable threats today.  Go back 50 years, and they weren't comparable threats either though.

 

You may not be advocating for religious discrimination, but many people are.  The idea that Islam has a monopoly on violence or oppression is laughable though.  Communist dictators still oppress and slaughter their own people in countries around the world.  The LRA was slaughtering people in Africa, but today are quite small.

post #727 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbernine View Post


"Get real 'referenced the intent of the post ,which was obviously ,why should we let anyone in if they don't serve our needs.God you are like a middle school debate club captain. You want to throw ideals out of your life go ahead ,it certainly explains why this world is going to hell in a hat,you should be proud of your contribution

Again, very rich. You of course are conveniently leaving out where I said, "Now, I'm not saying this should be the only metric, or applied to all applicants..." By doing this you think you're creating a pissing match, and as usual, pretending you're on the right side of history and standing on moral high ground. What you're really doing is proving my earlier statement correct in that any challenge to your pontifications will be met with a hissy fit like the above.
I gotta go but to answer . I'm not on any side of history at this point I'm just part of it right or wrong and as far as moral high ground goes it's the only ground worth holding IMO . Lastly if you think that was creating a pissing match or having a hissy fit , you have obviously never met my wife
post #728 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Third, France seems to have far more problems than other countries. Don't you think that has something to do with how they treat Muslims there? Doing things like banning head scarves in schools? Basically forcing them into ghettos?

This is victim blaming and inaccurate. Nobody forces muslims into gettos in Europe, they are pretty much self-segregated. Western Europe has been more than welcoming of muslim migrants, to the point of being to soft and not standing up for liberal values in cases like Cologne etc. You could say France treats muslims badly letting the prophet be disrespected by newspapers like Charlie Hebdo but in European countries, European values should take precedent, same with religious symbols in schools. You should adjust to your new country, learn the language try to integrate not the other way around.

Also this doesn't hold up for many many cases of terrorism like Boston bombers who were given a shot at life in one of the best countries in the world after Russia made a creater out of Chechenya and in the end they end up bombing you instead of Russia. Same with Brussels. What did Belgium do to deserve this? It's a country that is not involved in ME, is a great place to live and yet they get bombed in return. Radical Islam is a cancer and these islamists and jihadists will work against you no matter if your good to them or not. France while it has its faults is great place to live too and that's why these people are there in the first place and not in their home countries. There's no justification for what happened in France.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Second, if we ban the immigration of a group, such as Muslims, does that prevent them from committing acts of terrorism in the United States?  I doubt it - they can come here as visitors and still perpetrate their acts or simply lie about their religion.

Sure they can do this. But it is more of a problem if you have a big minority like France does. Some countries don't even have problems with immigration from 3rd world including terrorism, because immigration numbers are very small and people who come in there have little choice but to assimiliate. Japan doesn't have terror attacks, it's just more practical for a terrorist to act in country of his residence, especially for lonewolves like one in Nice. If there are any, there are very few organization that could pull off large scale planned terrorist attack in another country.

I would not propose a total ban, it would never work ofc. Im in favour of qoutas or 'ban' certain high risk countries like Pakistan. Go by region/country instead of religion. Keeping the numbers low would be something I would say is both managable and a practical thing to do. It's not like USA is short on hands to work so you can be picky about who you allow in. There is nothing immigrant from muslim country can bring that non-muslim can't. I would guess i'm not the only person who thinks this way. Maybe it's not nice or compassionate but it's best for your country and countrymen so it's more important that needs of people overseas.

What I have in mind could also be said in this way- I'm from eastern europe my chances of getting a Japanese citizenship are quite small. It's not a ban per say, but unless i'm super valuable to japan im not getting a citizenship(which is a shame, it's a cool coutry to live) but it's up to Japan to decide. It's not a born right of every 2nd world country citizen from EE to get a Japanese citizenship, neither it should be every Pakistani born right to to get US citzenship.
Edited by wojt - 7/17/16 at 1:48pm
post #729 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post


This is victim blaming and inaccurate. Nobody forces muslims into gettos in Europe, they are pretty much self-segregated. Western Europe has been more than welcoming of muslim migrants, to the point of being to soft and not standing up for liberal values in cases like Cologne etc. You could say France treats muslims badly letting the prophet be disrespected by newspapers like Charlie Hebdo but in European countries, European values should take precedent, same with religious symbols in schools. You should adjust to your new country, learn the language try to integrate not the other way around.
Sure they can do this. But it is more of a problem if you have a big minority like France does. Some countries don't even have problems with immigration from 3rd world including terrorism, because immigration numbers are very small and people who come in there have little choice but to assimiliate. Japan doesn't have terror attacks, it's just more practical for a terrorist to act in country of his residence, especially for lonewolves like one in Nice. If there are any, there are very few organization that could pull off large scale planned terrorist attack.
 

 

I'm not victim blaming.  If newspapers and other media making fun of Mohamed or whatever was actually a cause, the US would be attacked nonstop.  France and other EU countries do actually try to censor some of that, and I'm not aware of any such censorship efforts in the US.

 

Japan isn't a good example.  They are a very homogeneous population that doesn't like any outsiders.  Furthermore, the average age in Japan is like 85 - they're too old to be blowing themselves up or going on shooting sprees.

post #730 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Third, France seems to have far more problems than other countries.  Don't you think that has something to do with how they treat Muslims there?

i've shared more about this in the past here, but it's worth mentioning that France's muslim population is around 7% yet they make up 60-70% of the prison population. sounds familiar?
post #731 of 1309
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

i've shared more about this in the past here, but it's worth mentioning that France's muslim population is around 7% yet they make up 60-70% of the prison population. sounds familiar?

Canada and the French?
post #732 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

i've shared more about this in the past here, but it's worth mentioning that France's muslim population is around 7% yet they make up 60-70% of the prison population. sounds familiar?

Time for a MLM?
post #733 of 1309
post #734 of 1309
I think we can all agree our immigration policy is absolutely ridiculous. It needs to be destroyed and rebuilt, but it's government, so good luck with that.
post #735 of 1309
maybe this headline is fitting for this thread ?

"Seven people were killed and at least 52 more were wounded in shootings across Chicago between Friday evening and Monday morning, according to Chicago Police."
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/07/18/7-killed-52-wounded-in-weekend-shootings-across-chicago/
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