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Official Terrorist Bombing and Other Acts of Inhumanity Thread - Page 68

post #1006 of 1314
White America has a lot to answer for:

post #1007 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Well, Eric is a bit wrong in his last reply. Hard to believe, I know.

Why I say this is that all the anti-bullying movements these days, in large part, is in response to the historic treatment of the uncool kids, i.e. nerds. No, nerds are not a protected class (which Eric keeps appealing to while I'm saying I'm not sure if appealing to them in this case is apropos) but there isn't a person in the developed world that doesn't know what a "nerd" is and the treatment they often endure. While Eric deems my example "middle-school" I picked it on purpose as it is an enduring group of people in our society and that there is in fact a current societal movement to protect them.

Nerd and its associated social groups are a very American concept and not that operative, except through emulation (diffusion of american cultural stereotypes), in most western countries. Try explaining the idea of jocks as some sort of white upper class athlete thugs to a french person and you'll get blank stares.
post #1008 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

Hate crime have done nothing of course, the whole idea is some really perverted understanding of justice. Like it's a bigger crime to beat up a black man than a ginger for no reason than their looks, both are morally reprehensible. We're either equal under the law or not, there shouldn't be any protected class. All acts of violence that can be described as hate crime are already penalized. Whole idea of hate crimes borders on state prosecuting 'illegal thoughts' in your head.

I don't think you understand how western law is constructed, in fact I am sure of it. I'm not expert either but you need a minimum of understanding before you comment.

1) Hate crimes aren't about investigating those nasty illegal thoughts in your head (wtf?), they are about possible motivations for concrete actions. Motivations is pretty much a constant in the treatment of violent crimes (was there premeditation, what was their mental state etc.).

2) Hate crimes would be classifying certain motivations as bringing additional penalties versus others, something we already do...
post #1009 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

I don't think you understand how western law is constructed, in fact I am sure of it. I'm not expert either but you need a minimum of understanding before you comment.

1) Hate crimes aren't about investigating those nasty illegal thoughts in your head (wtf?), they are about possible motivations for concrete actions. Motivations is pretty much a constant in the treatment of violent crimes (was there premeditation, what was their mental state etc.).

2) Hate crimes would be classifying certain motivations as bringing additional penalties versus others, something we already do...

Like 'crime passionnel' being a mitigating factor when murdering ones spouse or lover of said spouse smile.gif
post #1010 of 1314
Hate crimes are crime motivated around peoples sexual, race or religious believes. Hate crimes isn't anything new gays have been targeted for years and years and years.
post #1011 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by nootje View Post

Like 'crime passionnel' being a mitigating factor when murdering ones spouse or lover of said spouse smile.gif

Yeah that kind of stuff. Why? I'm not event presenting an opinion, merely saying that "hate crimes" follow a typical pattern and thus do not stand outside as some sort of thought policing, as it is often said by ignorant web-kids.

Now, once again, while it is common in many jurisdiction, sometimes due to past ethnic conflicts (i.e. Bosnia, Rwanda) it seems to me that the topic and its impacts mainly come up in the USA, as its applications seem more far-reaching there + free speech is super protected.
post #1012 of 1314
Thread Starter 
As I posted earlier hate crime legislation was created to punish crimes that were designed to impact a community. Those I agree with. They have morphed into amplified punishment for certain crimes against the individual. Those I tend to/somewhat disagree with.

Yes, some crimes are categorized by motivation. They are not quite the same as hate crime motivation. For instance, there is the act of killing someone. We know if it was unforeseeable and/or accidental this is manslaughter and not murder. Murder is still murder if someone murders you for your money or for being a member of a protected class. Appealing to protected classes in this case, IMO, is inconsistent application of motive. I know all people that are pro-hate crime as formulated by crimes against the individual see the protected class as reason to amplify the punishment for crimes against the individual. I'm pretty dubious on that and also think it causes at least as much harm to society and any good particularly as I'm not sure this creates any deterrent effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

I don't think you understand how western law is constructed, in fact I am sure of it. I'm not expert either but you need a minimum of understanding before you comment.

1) Hate crimes aren't about investigating those nasty illegal thoughts in your head (wtf?), they are about possible motivations for concrete actions. Motivations is pretty much a constant in the treatment of violent crimes (was there premeditation, what was their mental state etc.).

2) Hate crimes would be classifying certain motivations as bringing additional penalties versus others, something we already do...
post #1013 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

As I posted earlier hate crime legislation was created to punish crimes that were designed to impact a community. Those I agree with. They have morphed into amplified punishment for certain crimes against the individual. Those I tend to/somewhat disagree with.

Yes, some crimes are categorized by motivation. They are not quite the same as hate crime motivation. For instance, there is the act of killing someone. We know if it was unforeseeable and/or accidental this is manslaughter and not murder. Murder is still murder if someone murders you for your money or for being a member of a protected class. Appealing to protected classes in this case, IMO, is inconsistent application of motive. I know all people that are pro-hate crime as formulated by crimes against the individual see the protected class as reason to amplify the punishment for crimes against the individual. I'm pretty dubious on that and also think it causes at least as much harm to society and any good particularly as I'm not sure this creates any deterrent effect.

I was just commenting on the thought-crime bullshit I read here. A common and extremely faulty argument typical of the angry online nerd right (possibly the group most deserving of being hate crimed on very hard). TBH I see this as an american problematic I'm somewhat agnostic about. It exists in other places but is often a minimal factor in sentencing. I'm more interested in the requirement of many hate crime legislation relating to the collection of statistics.
post #1014 of 1314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

I was just commenting on the thought-crime bullshit I read here. A common and extremely faulty argument typical of the angry online nerd right (possibly the group most deserving of being hate crimed on very hard). TBH I see this as an american problematic I'm somewhat agnostic about. It exists in other places but is often a minimal factor in sentencing. I'm more interested in the requirement of many hate crime legislation relating to the collection of statistics.

Collecting stats is always good in my book.

While I think the SCOTUS ruled on hate crimes v. free expression/First, which is what segues into the thought crime...I'm not part of the smart kid club on that. I do think it borders on it. People will say it is the manifested action getting punished. I agree it is the action getting punished, and then the added punishment of "hate crime" gets tossed on and that's where I do think there's an element of policing thought.

So, manifested action = the murder.

Murder gets punished as murder would.

Then "hate crime" gets tagged on top.

Again, I know this excludes me from being on the right side of history, Eric believes I think this way as I'm experiencing white butt hurt, but no one has given me a convincing argument in support of this. Crimes designed to impact a community? I've never argued with that as a distinct thing but the amplified punishment for crime against the individual I'm having a hard time agreeing with.
post #1015 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

ah the enlightened conversation we'll have now:

- stop jumping to conclusions stupid media
- "hate crimes" are stupid hurr hurr
- they blame Trump why don't they blame themselves hurr hurr

(repeat for about eight pages of drivel)

Why aren't all white americans disvowing this? Where are their community leaders?




and pretty i would reply same as Piob replied to you in anwser to your 'hate crimes' comment
post #1016 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


So, manifested action = the murder.

Murder gets punished as murder would.

Then "hate crime" gets tagged on top.

Hate crimes isn't only murder.

They can be anything from psychological harassment, assault to murder.
post #1017 of 1314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Hate crimes isn't only murder.

They can be anything from psychological harassment, assault to murder.

Did I need to enumerate that murder was merely one example among many?
post #1018 of 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Collecting stats is always good in my book.

While I think the SCOTUS ruled on hate crimes v. free expression/First, which is what segues into the thought crime...I'm not part of the smart kid club on that. I do think it borders on it. People will say it is the manifested action getting punished. I agree it is the action getting punished, and then the added punishment of "hate crime" gets tossed on and that's where I do think there's an element of policing thought.

So, manifested action = the murder.

Murder gets punished as murder would.

Then "hate crime" gets tagged on top.

Again, I know this excludes me from being on the right side of history, Eric believes I think this way as I'm experiencing white butt hurt, but no one has given me a convincing argument in support of this. Crimes designed to impact a community? I've never argued with that as a distinct thing but the amplified punishment for crime against the individual I'm having a hard time agreeing with.

Do we agree what the accused was thinking is, generally speaking, a factor in, say, a murder case? Or maybe a self-defense (did I believe I was in danger etc.). If there is thought policing it is a basic component of the law and not something specific to hate crime laws, this is all I am saying.
post #1019 of 1314
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

Do we agree what the accused was thinking is, generally speaking, a factor in, say, a murder case? Or maybe a self-defense (did I believe I was in danger etc.). If there is thought policing it is a basic component of the law and not something specific to hate crime laws, this is all I am saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Yes, some crimes are categorized by motivation. They are not quite the same as hate crime motivation. For instance, there is the act of killing someone. We know if it was unforeseeable and/or accidental this is manslaughter and not murder. Murder is still murder if someone murders you for your money or for being a member of a protected class.
post #1020 of 1314
You need to distinguish between crimes that are defined by "motive" and crimes that are defined by intent. Intent is an element in most crimes. Motive in very few.
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