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In this thread: The suits of James Bond and whether he should always be well tailored. - Page 2

post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


Ehh .. I feel like I'm reasonably open minded about how a suit can fit and how designers can reinterpret things. Some things are just bad tailoring.

If you take that extreme of a relativist view (ie "that's just how some guys want their suits to fit"), then it's impossible to judge anything. You could say that for books, movies, music, art, etc -- yes, these things are all subjective, but you can also reasonably say some things are good and some things are bad.

I am not disagreeing that the tailor is bad, nor that the fit of the suit cannot be judged, but only that to judge the fit of suiting in a movie is a pretty silly exercise except to judge whether the choices accurately reflect the character being portrayed.  In this case, I would say yes, the non perfect suiting is in keeping with the character and his back story.  If we were going to make a movie about the life of Manton, maybe not so much.  

 

I mean, why should a guy like James Bond have "good taste?"  An appetite for expensive things and women, sure, but high taste levels?  Unlikely.  I imagine that if James Bond existed in real life, he would be an insufferable douchebag who is unwilling and perhaps unable to see any number of his own shortcomings.

 

I guess that I should say that this comes from first hand experience with "self-made" guys who like things like cigars, nice cars, and nice clothes - from tech entrepreneurs to successful fighters.  I guess that I see James Bond's personality as being somewhere in that range.

post #17 of 41

Can we get some pics in this discussion? I did a quick google search and I see nothing egregious, but my eyes are very non-CM. I get that his suits are tight, but if I saw a normal guy wearing that I wouldn't cringe. Again I don't know the "rules" of CM, so school me please. Also my Margiela suit basically fits like all the recent Bond suits, so...

post #18 of 41
Jumping over from the random thread... One way to avoid continuity issues is to have magical suits that don't rip or tear and protect you from road rash when sliding on concrete. Tom Ford must have consulted Wilson Fisk's tailor/armorer from Daredevil.

I enjoyed the editing in Spectre (one of my favorite things was how the drummers in the parade scene were synced with the soundtrack), but I could not suspend disbelief in that opening sequence, especially after I noticed a piece of debris bounce off of Daniel Craig like it was painted styrofoam.
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I am not disagreeing that the tailor is bad, nor that the fit of the suit cannot be judged, but only that to judge the fit of suiting in a movie is a pretty silly exercise except to judge whether the choices accurately reflect the character being portrayed.  In this case, I would say yes, the non perfect suiting is in keeping with the character and his back story.  If we were going to make a movie about the life of Manton, maybe not so much.  

I mean, why should a guy like James Bond have "good taste?"  An appetite for expensive things and women, sure, but high taste levels?  Unlikely.  I imagine that if James Bond existed in real life, he would be an insufferable douchebag who is unwilling and perhaps unable to see any number of his own shortcomings.

I guess that I should say that this comes from first hand experience with "self-made" guys who like things like cigars, nice cars, and nice clothes - from tech entrepreneurs to successful fighters.  I guess that I see James Bond's personality as being somewhere in that range.

I love suits in old gangster films like Goodfellas and Scarface. Directors and costume designers there often used things like dark shirts, wide lapels, and flashier fabrics to show a certain character's seedy background or whatever.

Bond isn't that kind of character, but I think you could have shown the flashier lifestyle/ personality without putting him in an ill fitting suit. For one, they could have just put him in a normal Tom Ford suit, maybe adjusted for his physique. As is, it looked like they took Tom Ford's silhouette and tried to "modernize" it -- one size too small, cropped length, overly pinched in the waist, thinner lapels, etc. Don't think it's about good taste vs bad taste, or that bad taste = ugly tailoring. All those suits in old gangster films weren't in "good taste," but they fit well.







Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg0suazn View Post

Can we get some pics in this discussion? I did a quick google search and I see nothing egregious, but my eyes are very non-CM. I get that his suits are tight, but if I saw a normal guy wearing that I wouldn't cringe. Again I don't know the "rules" of CM, so school me please. Also my Margiela suit basically fits like all the recent Bond suits, so...







Looks like a shorter, size-too-small version of the original TF silhouette -- which has a longer jacket, fuller chest, and isn't meant to fit with wrinkles everywhere. Basically a sort of updated version the 1970s/ Tommy Nutter-esque silhouette.


post #20 of 41

Thanks, that original TF does look much more comfortable and relaxed.

 

I do have a suit that fits very similarly to the Craig examples, and yea basically it's a little too small and always slightly uncomfortable because I feel like I'm about to burst out of it. At least I can blame RTW.  

 

If Bond is supposed to always give off a louche, suave look then I can now see why the tailoring is so bad. But maybe because I can't unsee the movies, the tight look seems to suit the new Bond, who always seems ill at ease and more rough than polished. It also goes together with his complete lack of seduction technique. 

post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg0suazn View Post

Thanks, that original TF does look much more comfortable and relaxed.

I do have a suit that fits very similarly to the Craig examples, and yea basically it's a little too small and always slightly uncomfortable because I feel like I'm about to burst out of it. At least I can blame RTW.  

If Bond is supposed to always give off a louche, suave look then I can now see why the tailoring is so bad. But maybe because I can't unsee the movies, the tight look seems to suit the new Bond, who always seems ill at ease and more rough than polished. It also goes together with his complete lack of seduction technique. 

You can have a tight, slim look that fits well though. Tight doesn't mean bad fit/ poor tailoring, although you do usually have less room for error. See 1960s British mods, Sammy Davis Jr., Mad Men, etc.
post #22 of 41
Imagine the Daniel Craig going into a Room For, and the advice he'd take. For me, he'd end up looking much more like MMA fighters who like clothes, rather than a more traditionally well dressed guy.
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Imagine the Daniel Craig going into a Room For, and the advice he'd take. For me, he'd end up looking much more like MMA fighters who like clothes, rather than a more traditionally well dressed guy.

I don't know what's A Room For, but athletes are notoriously poorly dressed. Conor McGregor is an incredible MMA fighter (obviously), but he dresses horribly.
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I don't know what's A Room For, but athletes are notoriously poorly dressed. Conor McGregor is an incredible MMA fighter (obviously), but he dresses horribly.
Sure, but Connor really cares, and takes pains to tell people. He chooses the fit v of his suits very deliberately.

I was thinking of Rashad Evans, who actually wears Tom Ford, and is also very proud of his style.

Both frequently wear suits that are very very tight. Craig's bond would be more influenced by Patti than by put this,on.
post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

Sure, but Connor really cares, and takes pains to tell people. He chooses the fit v of his suits very deliberately.

I was thinking of Rashad Evans, who actually wears Tom Ford, and is also very proud of his style.

Both frequently wear suits that are very very tight. Craig's bond would be more influenced by Patti than by put this,on.

It's less about Connor's fit and more about his color combinations and choice of accessories. His suits generally fit fine; he just looks super corny.





I have no idea what kind of wardrobe would be best for the new Bond character, but I don't think poor tailoring should be thought of as just a stylistic choice. You can convey all sorts of things and still have beautiful tailoring (including very slim fits).

One guy who does the "not in traditional good taste" look very well is maomao. (To be clear, I think he's one of the best dressed guys around -- I'm using the term "good taste" to refer to the kind of Manton conservatism).



post #26 of 41
I dunno what you are looking at. You can see Conor's biceps through his suit, and the shoulders are spent tight. Heading met normal, I would, say that he is, the anti- Conor in demeanor and manner.
post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I don't know what's A Room For, but athletes are notoriously poorly dressed. Conor McGregor is an incredible MMA fighter (obviously), but he dresses horribly.

I meant a Tom Ford. Stupid phone.
post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I dunno what you are looking at. You can see Conor's biceps through his suit, and the shoulders are spent tight. Heading met normal, I would, say that he is, the anti- Conor in demeanor and manner.

I guess that's true. I can't pay that close of attention to the fit, tbh, when the rest is just so bad.

Again, not saying that Connor or Bond should dress in X way. I'm saying it's OK to say someone's choices exhibit poor tailoring and that poor tailoring is not just a "stylistic choice." You can have suits in all sorts of expressions -- slim, flashy, full, conservative, or whatever. Bifurfcating the world of tailoring into conservative Mantons and overly tight suits is dumb. Tons of people have worn flashy, suit suits that fit well. Again, see Sammy Davis Jr in his prime or the British mods.
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

I guess that's true. I can't pay that close of attention to the fit, tbh, when the rest is just so bad.

Again, not saying that Connor or Bond should dress in X way. I'm saying it's OK to say someone's choices exhibit poor tailoring and that poor tailoring is not just a "stylistic choice." You can have suits in all sorts of expressions -- slim, flashy, full, conservative, or whatever. Bifurfcating the world of tailoring into conservative Mantons and overly tight suits is dumb. Tons of people have worn flashy, suit suits that fit well. Again, see Sammy Davis Jr in his prime or the British mods.

I'm not saying they the tailoring is good. I'm saying that the fact that it is bad is actually more consistent with the character.
post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

I'm not saying they the tailoring is good. I'm saying that the fact that it is bad is actually more consistent with the character.

Wouldn't bad tailoring be better for a sort of inept character? Like some doofus at an office who struggles in everything (e.g. a lot of the side characters in the American version of The Office)? Granted, most of them would probably wear baggy Men's Warehouse kind of suits, but Ryan Howard/ BJ Novak would be the kind of guy in a poorly fitted skinny suit.

Even if Bond comes from a less privileged/ smooth background, you'd think that his character would require impeccable tailoring. The kind of guy you trust, believe in, etc.

Again, all those gangsters in The Goodfellas and Scarface were kind of like that. Guys from not so polished backgrounds that were just super skilled/ self-made/ could get away with anything. Their suits fit very well, even if they weren't "in good taste."
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