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Do I wear a pocket square for a court appearance in prison? - Page 2

post #16 of 25
DVD player? Playstation? Typewriter? That is cruel and unusual punishment. There are Bluerays, PS4s, and computers now. That's torture being stuck with inferior tech.
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalb916 View Post

I suppose if this is a political statement about late-80s politics, a fuller picture could help others. The furlough law that allowed for Horton's release was signed into law by a Republican governor. Of course, Dukakis is not absolved of responsibility. He had an active roll in allowing the program to continue for first degree murderers. Both Republicans and Democrats have blood on their hands for Willie Horton. Also of note, 45 states at the time allowed for prison furloughs, and the majority of those states allowed them for murderers, including Texas. Fucking Texas?!?! This was never just a pansy liberal dream.

Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the Democrat talking points in response -- one wonders the extent to which it's actually true, though. Just because it might have theoretically been legal to furlough murderers in other states doesn't mean they were actually doing it.
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the Democrat talking points in response -- one wonders the extent to which it's actually true, though. Just because it might have theoretically been legal to furlough murderers in other states doesn't mean they were actually doing it.

 

Are we really debating late-80s politics? I guess so.

 

Texas furloughed 517 people convicted of murder or voluntary manslaughter between January 1987 and October 1988, when the newspaper article below was published. And that includes people furloughed after the Willie Horton incident in April 1987. So, yeah, other states, like Texas, actually were doing it. This is no defense of the program. It's just silly to think that this was some crazy lefty thing. On the other hand, it looks like the likelihood a black man would be killed by a furloughed murderer is lower than even being in prison, so there's that.

 

post #19 of 25
Marvelous. I have to commend you for being right about that, at least with regard to Texas, and for digging up clear evidence in support. Though I have to note that it's still not as extreme as Massachusetts, which was giving weekend furloughs to people serving sentences of life without parole. And you can imagine how furloughs at the end of someone's sentence might be useful in reintegrating (and testing) candidates for release as the day approaches, but what did that have to do with Willie Horton? I imagine the goal there was to rack up a record for the program with an ultimate goal of setting aside all those life without parole sentences somewhere down the line. Too bad about the predictable result, eh?

Also, the success of these programs (success in the sense of getting adopted) supports rather than undermines by original post suggesting that these and other so-called criminal justice "reforms" are not as unthinkable in America as you might think.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Also, the success of these programs (success in the sense of getting adopted) supports rather than undermines by original post suggesting that these and other so-called criminal justice "reforms" are not as unthinkable in America as you might think.

 

Except your original post was an attempt to paint this as a problem of the left. Ignoring your goal post moving, my only point remains that these furlough programs were championed by the left and the right. Everybody gets some blame. I don't really care how you want to parse out that blame.

 

Maybe Massachusetts was as extreme as the liberal bastion of South Carolina, which also furloughed prisoners with life sentences and no parole.

post #21 of 25
You're forgetting that most states in the South (including Texas, I'm sure) were still in the iron grip of the Democratic party (or at least, mostly) up until this point, and almost certainly at the time these laws were passed.

I'm sure not all of them were bleeding hearts, but so-called conservative Democrats' receptiveness to the progressive ideas of their colleagues is what got them all voted out eventually.
post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

You're forgetting that most states in the South (including Texas, I'm sure) were still in the iron grip of the Democratic party (or at least, mostly) up until this point, and almost certainly at the time these laws were passed.

I'm sure not all of them were bleeding hearts, but so-called conservative Democrats' receptiveness to the progressive ideas of their colleagues is what got them all voted out eventually.

 

No, I'm not forgetting. I actually lived about an hour from Columbia, SC for most of the 80s. I'm pretty familiar with the politics. SC had a Republican governor at that time in the 80s. As I already mentioned, these were not just Democrat-initiated laws. The Massachusetts law was initiated by a Republican governor. Hell, Ronald Reagan had a furlough law on the books during his governorship, and that law also was initiated by one of his Republican predecessors. Anyway you slice it, these furlough programs were supported by both sides of the aisle.

post #23 of 25
First of all, you haven't actually demonstrated that furloughs (especially useless weekend ones like Horton got) were actually widely given to murderes.

Plus, those laws were passed in the '70s, not the '80s. The '70s were the high-water mark of the Democratic party in terms of state governments.

According a google search, in the mid '70s the Democrats had a legislator advantage in at least 42 states:

1NetPartCategoryv2.png&w=1484

So, I'm not convinced. Not that it really matters.

ETA: here's Texas:

Texas.png

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/11/49-charts-that-tell-the-partisan-history-of-state-legislatures/
post #24 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

First of all, you haven't actually demonstrated that furloughs (especially useless weekend ones like Horton got) were actually widely given to murderes.

Plus, those laws were passed in the '70s, not the '80s. The '70s were the high-water mark of the Democratic party in terms of state governments.

According a google search, in the mid '70s the Democrats had a legislator advantage in at least 42 states:

1NetPartCategoryv2.png&w=1484

So, I'm not convinced. Not that it really matters.

ETA: here's Texas:

Texas.png

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/11/49-charts-that-tell-the-partisan-history-of-state-legislatures/

 

 

Those are some cool graphs.

post #25 of 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

First of all, you haven't actually demonstrated that furloughs (especially useless weekend ones like Horton got) were actually widely given to murderes.

Plus, those laws were passed in the '70s, not the '80s. The '70s were the high-water mark of the Democratic party in terms of state governments.
 

 

I'll save myself the trouble of writing the same thing again:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zalb916 View Post
 

Except your original post was an attempt to paint this as a problem of the left. Ignoring your goal post moving, my only point remains that these furlough programs were championed by the left and the right. Everybody gets some blame. I don't really care how you want to parse out that blame.

 

 

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