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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre, Baume & Mercier and more) - Page 127

post #1891 of 4022
On your last point, I have to disagree with you. I don't think too many people who would view ALS as pretenders compared to Patek and Rolex. They offer a very high-end product on par with any other manufacturer, and one superior to most. Then again, I don't really know any collectors in real life, and rumor has it that the resale value of Lange is not nearly as strong as Patek or Rolex, so you may have a point. That being said, they do have their quirks. What is that expression about falling in love with someone for their flaws as well as their virtues?

Though in hindsight, you are probably referring to Lange as a pretender in the sense of having a direct, unbroken link to their past as compared to Patek and Rolex, which I can't fault.

I will admit I'm a big fan of the aesthetics of Lange, but more of the older models - Lange 1, Langematik with Big Date, and the like. Also the Cabaret, though it really isn't my personal style I can admire it objectively. My enjoyment of Lange's offerings doesn't really depend on their connection, real or not (and I'm not calling it either way), to prior iterations of the company.
Edited by tim_horton - 6/1/16 at 3:52pm
post #1892 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

The entirety of my (small) watch collection is dress watches, aside from a Casio G-Shock for the beach and the gym. No sports/dive watches at all. But I really like the looks of the new-ish Omega Seamaster 300 Master Co-Axial.




I know it's an homage, and it has "distressed" lume, but I don't care. It's one of the nicest looking dive watches I've ever seen, and I usually hate dive watches.

 

I like it.  I've got it on my shortlist with the new Tudor Black Bay Black.  I believe @Andy57 has posted pictures of the 300 in this thread.

post #1893 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

On your last point, I have to disagree with you. I don't think too many people who would view ALS as pretenders compared to Patek and Rolex. They offer a very high-end product on par with any other manufacturer, and one superior to most. Then again, I don't really know any collectors in real life, and rumor has it that the resale value of Lange is not nearly as strong as Patek or Rolex, so you may have a point. That being said, they do have their quirks. What is that expression about falling in love with someone for their flaws as well as their virtues?

Auction and resale numbers are enough to tell the story. It's painful for me to contemplate buying a Lange new when they can be had at such steep discounts in the secondhand market. That said, Lange is not alone in this regard. As you know, most makes suffer from heavy depreciation after purchase. Patek and Rolex are the exceptions.

Collector anecdote is corroborating. If you track the experience of a lot of well-known collectors, they tend to ultimately converge on Patek and Rolex--regardless of how varied their interests began. Jean-Claude Biver himself is an avid Patek collector with an extensive and very enviable collection, despite the fact that he has spent his life leading companies bent on competing with Patek.

As I think I mentioned earlier, after some time collecting and studying watches, you start to realize how much is purely marketing gee-whizzery versus truly great work that will stand the test of time.
post #1894 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Shoes1 View Post
 

 

I like it.  I've got it on my shortlist with the new Tudor Black Bay Black.  I believe @Andy57 has posted pictures of the 300 in this thread.


Yes, I have posted pictures of my SM 300. Mine is the Spectre limited edition, though, with the lollipop seconds hand and a 24-hour bezel.

post #1895 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Auction and resale numbers are enough to tell the story. It's painful for me to contemplate buying a Lange new when they can be had at such steep discounts in the secondhand market. That said, Lange is not alone in this regard. As you know, most makes suffer from heavy depreciation after purchase. Patek and Rolex are the exceptions.

Collector anecdote is corroborating. If you track the experience of a lot of well-known collectors, they tend to ultimately converge on Patek and Rolex--regardless of how varied their interests began. Jean-Claude Biver himself is an avid Patek collector with an extensive and very enviable collection, despite the fact that he has spent his life leading companies bent on competing with Patek.

As I think I mentioned earlier, after some time collecting and studying watches, you start to realize how much is purely marketing gee-whizzery versus truly great work that will stand the test of time.

True. That "gee-whiz" factor is present in so many fields - I see it every week in regards to orthopaedic implants - that one would have to have blinders on to not see it in mechanical watches, which are, technologically speaking, an anachronism.
post #1896 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_horton View Post

On your last point, I have to disagree with you. I don't think too many people who would view ALS as pretenders compared to Patek and Rolex. They offer a very high-end product on par with any other manufacturer, and one superior to most. Then again, I don't really know any collectors in real life, and rumor has it that the resale value of Lange is not nearly as strong as Patek or Rolex, so you may have a point. That being said, they do have their quirks. What is that expression about falling in love with someone for their flaws as well as their virtues?

Though in hindsight, you are probably referring to Lange as a pretender in the sense of having a direct, unbroken link to their past as compared to Patek and Rolex, which I can't fault.

I will admit I'm a big fan of the aesthetics of Lange, but more of the older models - Lange 1, Langematik with Big Date, and the like. Also the Cabaret, though it really isn't my personal style I can admire it objectively. My enjoyment of Lange's offerings doesn't really depend on their connection, real or not (and I'm not calling it either way), to prior iterations of the company.

You definitely brought up some interesting points.  I don't see Lange as a pretender when compared to any high end brand or Rolex.  They all have different histories, design aesthetics, and core values.  It merely depends on what a collector values and wants in his collection.  

 

As for having an unbroken past...Lange isn't the only company that was defunct and revived.  Jean Claude Biver did the same thing with Blancpain.  There are several other brands that are also revived names from the past.  While I like Lange, I've never cared for BP, so 2 revived brands both of high quality, just I prefer one to the other.  I don't fault either for being revived.  JLC's Reverso was out of production for a number of years...but they brought it back I believe in the 1980s...and its a stronger seller now that it ever was.  Should that be considered a broken link to the past...the company existed, but for a time the model did not?  Also, while the unbroken link to the past is nice with some brands, some brands go on to produce things I no longer want.  I used to really like VC's line up and several IWCs, now both produce very little that is of interest to me.  So they have an unbroken link to the past with modern products I wouldn't buy, so IMHO the unbroken link doesn't always mean much.

 

Patek and Rolex do have better resale that most other brands.  Both make great watches, and it can be difficult to consider purchasing competitor's pieces when one knows the resale value will not be as strong.  Although, it can represent a great bargain for those who purchase preowned LNIB pieces from other great brands.   

 

When it comes to auction values, yes lots of collectors flock to Patek and Rolex.  They both made and continue to make great watches so there are many reasons for people to bid on them and values to be strong.  However, at least on some level, I wonder if they are drawn to it on the investment level (knowing Patek/Rolex do well with collectors) and hence some of the purchase is made with resale/profit in mind more than on its technical merits or design (although those are usually part of the reason collectors become particularly interested in certain pieces).  In addition when it comes to Patek auction values, I discount that a bit to the degree Patek often sends people from their museum to bid on nivr vintage pieces.  If they have the winning bid, well then its a win for them,but even if they don't and they merely bid up the price significantly its still a win for them, as it makes news.  In addition, it helps sell basic modern offerings.  I've seen sales people showing a basic Calatrava and telling potential buyers about Patek's selling at auctions for fortunes and that this is a great piece to have.  Sure, its a great piece, but there is a significant difference in complexity, rarity, and desirability of the a vintage Patek perpetual calendar chronograph made in the 1950s vs a current Calatrava.  

 

Resale value and auction values are interesting factors to consider, but they only tell so much of a story. In the end Patek and Rolex make great high quality watches...but I also think Lange, AP, VC, JLC, Piaget, etc produce some exceptional pieces.

post #1897 of 4022
Thread Starter 

I would also add that both Patek and Rolex advertise massively.  Which both raises new prices and firms up the used market by stoking the aspiration of non watch geeks.  Since Omega went placement crazy, their used prices have been climbing too.  Very different companies and stages, but history and quality are not the only factors in desirability and depreciation.

post #1898 of 4022
Hi guys! First post for me in this thread, so please excuse my first pic, which admittedly could have been better.
My first "serious" watch, a first generation, last year run, Vacheron Constantin Overseas!
post #1899 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post

I don't know about y'all, but this seems like a game changer to me!

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-a-lange-and-sohne-saxonia-thin-in-37mm-the-new-entry-level-lange-official-pricing

What say you all? Love the size of it. And unbelievable that this represents a $10k discount from the 40mm offering...

Was quite pissed off when I read this last night, having just bought a pre-owned Saxonia Thin and compromising on the fact that I wished it were 38mm.

That said, I paid only about 20% more than the reported price of the new model and I have it now and I do love it. Need to be thankful for what we've got, right?
post #1900 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

You definitely brought up some interesting points.  I don't see Lange as a pretender when compared to any high end brand or Rolex.  They all have different histories, design aesthetics, and core values.  It merely depends on what a collector values and wants in his collection.  

As for having an unbroken past...Lange isn't the only company that was defunct and revived.  Jean Claude Biver did the same thing with Blancpain.  There are several other brands that are also revived names from the past.  While I like Lange, I've never cared for BP, so 2 revived brands both of high quality, just I prefer one to the other.  I don't fault either for being revived.  JLC's Reverso was out of production for a number of years...but they brought it back I believe in the 1980s...and its a stronger seller now that it ever was.  Should that be considered a broken link to the past...the company existed, but for a time the model did not?  Also, while the unbroken link to the past is nice with some brands, some brands go on to produce things I no longer want.  I used to really like VC's line up and several IWCs, now both produce very little that is of interest to me.  So they have an unbroken link to the past with modern products I wouldn't buy, so IMHO the unbroken link doesn't always mean much.

Patek and Rolex do have better resale that most other brands.  Both make great watches, and it can be difficult to consider purchasing competitor's pieces when one knows the resale value will not be as strong.  Although, it can represent a great bargain for those who purchase preowned LNIB pieces from other great brands.   

When it comes to auction values, yes lots of collectors flock to Patek and Rolex.  They both made and continue to make great watches so there are many reasons for people to bid on them and values to be strong.  However, at least on some level, I wonder if they are drawn to it on the investment level (knowing Patek/Rolex do well with collectors) and hence some of the purchase is made with resale/profit in mind more than on its technical merits or design (although those are usually part of the reason collectors become particularly interested in certain pieces).  In addition when it comes to Patek auction values, I discount that a bit to the degree Patek often sends people from their museum to bid on nivr vintage pieces.  If they have the winning bid, well then its a win for them,but even if they don't and they merely bid up the price significantly its still a win for them, as it makes news.  In addition, it helps sell basic modern offerings.  I've seen sales people showing a basic Calatrava and telling potential buyers about Patek's selling at auctions for fortunes and that this is a great piece to have.  Sure, its a great piece, but there is a significant difference in complexity, rarity, and desirability of the a vintage Patek perpetual calendar chronograph made in the 1950s vs a current Calatrava.  

Resale value and auction values are interesting factors to consider, but they only tell so much of a story. In the end Patek and Rolex make great high quality watches...but I also think Lange, AP, VC, JLC, Piaget, etc produce some exceptional pieces.

Of course the other companies you named make great watches. That is not debated. However, I don't think it is controversial to say that Patek stands apart. The Ivy League schools are all great--but then there is Harvard. Similar story. And I am neither a Patek collector nor Harvard alum.

Personally, I'm more interested in some of the independents (Journe, Dufour, Ferrier, etc.), as I think they are doing the more innovative, best quality watchmaking today. But they are not Patek. First of all, they do lack the history. Second, they cannot compete in terms of R&D resources--Patek can pump out complications like none other. Third, they generally lack the Patek attitude and aesthetic, a sort of quiet matter-of-factness where the watch is comfortable being your timekeeping accessory, not a showpiece to draw attention.

It's that last quality that I admire the most. When I started getting into watches many years ago, I was drawn to the dazzlers. I don't mean diamonds and bling. I mean watches with "cool" complications and standout looks that tells the world "I know my watches and I didn't buy a stupid Rolex." That's, frankly, almost all of the high-end watch universe today. Now that bores me. It is all pizazz and no brains and no elegance. The best examples of Patek are the opposite. Like a perfectly tailored suit made out of the best quality English wool in a simple, plain pattern and color, they are confident in their own intrinsic quality and happy to play second fiddle to their owners rather than be the center of attention themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

I would also add that both Patek and Rolex advertise massively.  Which both raises new prices and firms up the used market by stoking the aspiration of non watch geeks.  Since Omega went placement crazy, their used prices have been climbing too.  Very different companies and stages, but history and quality are not the only factors in desirability and depreciation.

Average rich guy might be influenced to buy a $30K Calatrava because he's seen enough Patek advertising in the Wall Street Journal, but you can't really believe that's what influences knowledgeable collectors who spend hundreds of thousands or more on a single watch at auction, can you?

The people who seriously collect Pateks tend to be people who really know watches, not impressionable neophytes.
post #1901 of 4022
Quote:
Third, they generally lack the Patek attitude and aesthetic, a sort of quiet matter-of-factness where the watch is comfortable being your timekeeping accessory, not a showpiece to draw attention. ... The best examples of Patek are the opposite. Like a perfectly tailored suit made out of the best quality English wool in a simple, plain pattern and colour, they are confident in their own intrinsic quality and happy to play second fiddle to their owners rather than be the centre of attention themselves.

I have to disagree MF.

Many Patek models are pure Bling.

And most people who collect Pateks are in it for the investment not the love of horology. Just as most buyers of modern art are in it for the investment and to be one up on the sheik next door not the love of art.
post #1902 of 4022
With respect to the new Lange, I seriously doubt that the watch is plated or that Lange is using inferior parts. I think we are witnessing a move back towards realistic pricing.

This Lange, at sub-$15,000, is squarely within my reach.
post #1903 of 4022
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

I have to disagree MF.

Many Patek models are pure Bling.
[...]

Indeed, I'd say that their standards have noticeably slipped, and they've certainly put out a few duds in recent years.

Their older watches were lovely across the range, but things done changed. The only area in which Patek unquestionably seems to be leading the industry these days is auction manipulation.
post #1904 of 4022

I'll admit that the gold-plated comment was simply a knee jerk reaction from a "Somethings got to give" mindset and is likely wrong. Though I don't find my suggestion about the movements to be quite as far-fetched, though of course it is simply conjecture. I wasn't suggesting that they would throw cheap or bad parts into this watch, just that movements that might not meet their exacting standards for a $25,000 watch could meet their ever-so-slightly less exacting standards for a $15,000 watch.

post #1905 of 4022

The Swiss watch industry has a post-China cat. 

They were inebriated by the Chinese who suddenly got access to western luxury toys and were mesmerized by them, competing to show off The Bling.

If it was expensive and had a brand to make the price obvious it was grabbed.

 

In the west it's always about quantity to make a sound profit. It sounds nice to think "our brand starts at 15.000$". Okay, but can you generate enough sales to keep the company afloat? Are there enough customers ready to dish out a car on a wrist ornament? 

Probably not; that's why Rolls finished as a BMW show-piece, same as Bentley, Hispano Suiza is history,...and various Swiss brands, like Audemars P. are on the way there (depending 70% on one model). 

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