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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre, Baume & Mercier and more)
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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre, Baume & Mercier and more) - Page 122

post #1816 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joenobody0 View Post

I know it sounds snobbish, but I'll always stick to real watch brands - not guys who decide their luxury lifestyle brand could use a watch offering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAUGRANA View Post

What's the diameter on those?  They look big.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Not very interested in their products.  To me they will always be a pen maker, regardless of what company they acquired to make their movements.  Also, these days the term limited edition is over used and is often a gimmick to make people believe something is truly special and rare.  Not to mention most watch companies release several limited editions every year.  Skip these and move on to something else. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

And that is my principal issue with Montblanc: as much as it grates to see their unfamiliar labels, I've no problem with them, or Louis Vuitton or Hermes doing what they're doing.  They have decided to make a high quality product, invested in serious knowledge and capacity and that's fine.  It's just business.  But with Montblanc in particular - particular because they are aiming for a high volume market segment - it's so disappointing that they cannot come up with a coherent design language.  Their pens are recognisable from a mile away.  But their watches are a bizarre medley of inflated parts bin jumbles that are often weirdly reminiscent of cheaper brands.  They're just not designing anything with a personality, and it seems like an opportunity lost when they have made such a big move.

Wow tough crowd! Agree that at the same price, I would rather buy an IWC (e.g.) than a Montblanc.

Having said that, (1) Montblanc sounds like an example of a brand that is considered very differently by watch aficionados from the casuals - I wore it out yesterday and today (see pictures below) and there were a lot of positive comments about it; and (2) overall, so far I'm actually quite happy with it - they've obviously put a lot of money into the movements, feels sturdy and well built but not super heavy (although the clasp gets a little uncomfortable), and loving the white face at the moment and the different chrono setup they've got.

Let's see what happens - I'm still undecided (disclosure - I may sell one soon!).






Quote:
Originally Posted by roomiller View Post

In regards to Montblanc I tend to agree with the consensus here. Their entire line is a bit of mess, but some of the watches stand out to me - the world time watch that Hodinkee did a hands on with a few months back struck me as a fun and interesting watch. Though you have to admire their desire to actually build high quality watches; they have all the brand recognition necessary to simply sell overpriced fashion watches, yet they don't.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the average high-end watch purchaser is not at all like the people who frequent this thread. Montblanc could have made boatloads on crap watches without Minerva, yet they chose to go the respectable route. 

If we want to focus on the sins of Richemont watchmakers, I think we're focusing on the wrong brands in their umbrella.

+1!
Edited by ebayhtl - 5/27/16 at 4:20am
post #1817 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
It isn't really fair to compare time only pieces or ultra thin watches to a Lange 1.  If one wants a thin time only watch, or if that is how one in categorizing a true dress watch well then that's fine, but then one should be comparing a time only Lange to time only PPs, APs, and VCs.  Then at least you are comparing apples to apples. 

While I agree in general Lange's peers are Patek, VC, AP etc. I still don't think there is a Patek, VC, or AP that has as unique of a the design as an L1, and I don't see it as having peers.  Sure you can find a Patek, VC, or AP with a date, a power reserve, a subdial for seconds...but most are larger or thicker.

VC has Traditionelle ref 85290  Day Date 41 mm case and 10.65 mm thick.  Nice but a bit dull. They have been offering this dial layout for years but I've always thought it was forgettable. 

AP has its Jules Audemars Dual Time 41 mm and 9.25 mm thick.  Nice but I don't love the use of the RO Dual Time dial layout in this piece.  Its case is thinner, but larger in diameter, and its a situation of a small movement going into a larger case to follow fashion.  It actually fits in a much smaller case (as they were offering it in earlier 36 mm round models in the 1990s). Also some may have issues with it being a JLC derived movement when the other are in house movements. 

Patek...well they don't really offer a similar complication unless maybe you go to the old 5054 of the late 1990's.  It's smaller in diameter 35.5...but thicker at 10 mm.  

Those are all nice watches, but I can't say any of them are as visually interesting as the L1, nor were any of them ground breaking designs when they were released.  So perhaps any watch listed above would be subject to what you described as a "bigger issue: the proliferation of "dressy" watch designs that sacrifice simplicity and thinness in order to be bigger, flashier and more noticeable." 

While the dressiest watches in the purest sense would be very thin, time only pieces... I'm not offended by watches being somewhat larger or a bit thicker and having a few complications.  I think its maybe a bit an inaccurate generalization to throw all watches that have complications and which are thicker than time only pieces or ultra thins into a class of watch designs that sacrifice simplicity and thinness in order to be bigger, flashier and more noticeable.   I find watches that fall under the being bigger, flashier and more noticeable...to be watches like Hublot Big Bang pieces, Offshore ROs, several IWCs, and a host of other gigantic watches that are often not very attractive, and are often about outblinging other people. 

Anyway, nothing wrong with an L1 not being the right watch for you.  I just find its really a watch that's in a class by itself in terms of design.
 

I won't dispute that the Lange 1 has a unique dial design. However, other than the big date, I don't agree its features should add any thickness versus the 5296 benchmark.

Sub-seconds, for example, do not require the extra gear train that central seconds do--that actually ought to be a disadvantage for the Patek and an advantage for the Lange 1, not the other way around. Power reserve indicators also do not need to add thickness. Really, the only feature that does is the big date. Yet, the Patek is an automatic and burdened by a central rotor! So why is the German so much chunkier? I suppose there is the longer power reserve that necessitates two mainspring barrels, but still doesn't add up to me. FP Journe's Chronometre Souverain is thinner and includes both double mainsprings and a power reserve indicator.

Anyway, not saying the Lange 1 isn't an admirable watch, just suggesting some of its design decisions are perhaps more for show than substance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

Mafoofan, can I make some suggestions?

The Patek is boring. Incredibly boring. It's dial is flat and "dead", and it looks like a watch which is consciously trying to reference the past. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

And a water meter.

(all IMO of course)

If a Patek or Lange is in your budget... and you like the Moser - how about these?

(especially if you want to stay within the "dress watch" rubric)

1. Laurent Ferrier Microrotor



2. F.P. Journe Octa Divine/Octa Automatique Lune or Quantieme Perpetual

OD:


OAL:


QP:

Sometimes "boring" is a virtue . . .

The best Pateks are the "boring" ones, not the ones that have been highly fashioned or over-designed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

I do love that Galet Micro-Rotor with shameful passion.

It's a beauty for sure.
post #1818 of 3949
which tank are you selling? Link to your ad?
post #1819 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral View Post

which tank are you selling? Link to your ad?

Tank Louis Cartier Extra Flat in rose gold, with Piaget ultra-thin movement. Sold already.
post #1820 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


I won't dispute that the Lange 1 has a unique dial design. However, other than the big date, I don't agree its features should add any thickness versus the 5296 benchmark....


Anyway, not saying the Lange 1 isn't an admirable watch, just suggesting some of its design decisions are perhaps more for show than substance.
Sometimes "boring" is a virtue . . .

The best Pateks are the "boring" ones, not the ones that have been highly fashioned or over-designed.
 

Not sure if the 5296 is specifically your desired watch and that is why it's being compared to the Lange 1.  However, your statements about thickness would still apply to the VC and the Patek 5054 that I referenced, both which are closer to a L1 in terms of offering similar additional functions to telling time.  

 

Ah yes, I recall your dislike of the gold chatons.  Its all personal preference, but much of what happens with watch designs is a way of distinguishing themselves from others.  Blue'd screws - some watches have them, some its just chemically done (not through heating), others don't bother at all, but it doesn't affect a watches performance.  I've seen JLCs that have them, and VC's with the same base movement that don't.   As for your design for show rather than substance...I can't help but chuckle a little.  One can purchase something that is all substance for a heck of a lot less than a Patek, Lange, AP, VC etc.  So on some level, your choice regardless of brand is about show.  

 

As for boring watches, well maybe I'd choose boring over some of Patek's more recent tasteless pieces with engraved cases.   However, when considering more subdued normal watches - while there is nothing wrong with boring, I don't see it as a virtue.  Boring can be safe, and there can be comfort in that... but boring is one of the reasons I've struggled for years to find a basic "Relatively affordable" Patek that I really wanted to own. 

 

Anyway, wishing you luck on your next watch adventure and I look forward to seeing what you eventually choose. 

post #1821 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

  As for design for show rather than substance...I can't help but chuckle a little.  One can purchase something that is all substance for a heck of a lot less than a Patek, Lange, AP, VC etc.  So on some level, your choice regardless of brand is about show.  

 

As for boring watches, well maybe I'd choose boring over some of Patek's more recent tasteless pieces with engraved cases.   However, when considering more subdued normal watches - while there is nothing wrong with boring, I don't see it as a virtue.  Boring can be safe, and there can be comfort in that... but boring is one of the reasons I've struggled for years to find a basic "Relatively affordable" Patek that I really wanted to own. 

 

I like your approach.

Speaking about substance watches, which ones would be your preference? 

 

Classical design is not the same as boring; usually the most boring watches are some modern pieces that are attractive at first since a novelty, when the novelty wares off they become wearing on the nerves and then irritating.  

 

Speaking about the engraved Patek Philippe: (not that I would put it on my wrist, still beautiful as a collection item) 


Edited by Nikolaus - 5/27/16 at 11:14am
post #1822 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

I do love that Galet Micro-Rotor with shameful passion.

LL

+1 that's gorgeous watch.

With such a sexy movement....and a 72-hr. power reserve!

Somebody should buy me one.
Edited by Keith T - 5/27/16 at 11:39am
post #1823 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaus View Post



Winter is coming.
post #1824 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD View Post


Winter is coming.

actually summer is hitting hard as of yesterday; 30°C. 

post #1825 of 3949
Thread Starter 
Pansy. 43 for me. Should I consider a linen dial?
post #1826 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaus View Post
 

I like your approach.

Speaking about substance watches, which ones would be your preference? 

 

Classical design is not the same as boring; usually the most boring watches are some modern pieces that are attractive at first since a novelty, when the novelty wares off they become wearing on the nerves and then irritating.  

 

I think even watches designed with substance being a primary concern need some element of design that goes beyond substance/function (although, I'm not sure I'd call it design for show).   If everything were purely for function, we would probably have a very limited choice of watches, or some very bland pieces.  For me the right watches tend to have some design for substance, perhaps some design for show, and maybe a bit of history in the mix.  

 

Just speaking generally, if one were looking for watches of substance for less money than Patek, AP, VC, or Lange, there are plenty of new and pre-owed options from JLC, Omega, and Rolex, just to name a few.  Although, I don't own one yet, I've always been a bit fan of JLC's Reverso.  Which if one considers it, started out as a design with a specific purpose in mind, a rugged design that protected its crystal for polo players...yet today, its design is often favored for its art deco style, and for many although its history is one of a sports watch it has crossed over into being a dress watch (depending on the model).

 

I agree classical design is not the same as boring.  In fact some of my favorite watch designs have been around for many decades or are based on designs from the past.  In my own collection the 2 pieces with the youngest origins of design were originally produced 40+ years ago, and the oldest design for a watch in my collection is approaching 100 years.

 

I am a firm believer that Patek makes a great product!  My father has owned a few over the last 30 years, so its a familiar brand to me.   I appreciate their history, and they have produced some really amazing complications, and some lovely time only pieces.  However, short of some of their more complicated pieces, I've often struggled to find a design that really spoke to me (although maybe as a watch addict, that means I'm defective ;)).   Early on one of my goals as a collector was to have at least 1 piece from each of great houses.  However, that hasn't happened as I've purchased more than one piece from some brands and none from others.  I suppose sometimes the focus of our collections change.  When I've had the opportunity to purchase Pateks, I've always gone with something else.  Not because of issues with quality, resale, or cost (although in recent years I think their prices have been harder to justify)...but because at the time I just didn't love the designs that were available.  Hopefully, some day I will find just the right piece and add it to my collection, but if not, I'm sure other manufacturers will console that empty part of my collection by offering some other horological temptress.  


Edited by Dino944 - 5/28/16 at 5:50am
post #1827 of 3949
@Dino944, some great insights into the Lange 1 discussion and we share many of the same opinions, though you expressed yourself so much more eloquently. smile.gif

I thought that one of the 1815 models would be my first Lange, but I am getting draw back to the L1. Actually, I've liked it in the past, but sort of discounted it, since it is slightly out of my price range. Plus, if a watch has a date function, I would prefer it to be an automatic. I am such a fickle person!

Anyways, I read a bit more about the L1 and learned that the case has screwed-on lugs. Never heard of this "feature" before and found it interesting. I guess the idea is that the lugs can be removed in order to polish the case. Not sure how I feel about it, in the sense if it would matter to me that the lugs are not integral to the case. Anyone know if the other ALS models also have screwed-on lugs?
post #1828 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post
 

Just speaking generally, if one were looking for watches of substance for less money than Patek, AP, VC, or Lange, there are plenty of new and pre-owed options from JLC, Omega, and Rolex, just to name a few.  Although, I don't own one yet, I've always been a bit fan of JLC's Reverso.  Which if one considers it, started out as a design with a specific purpose in mind,...

 

I am a firm believer that Patek makes a great product!   However, short of some of their more complicated pieces, I've often struggled to find a design that really spoke to me.

 

Wonderful post! :) 

 

as for designs that started with a purpose, the "dive" watches are my absolute favorite since they have that ceramic bezel (that makes away with the metallic rim). Actually I adore the ceramic bezels :D 

For everyday wear I was looking at Blancpain, however, their "history" coupled with their modern marketing positioning has put me a little off; not to mention their lack of innovation (as we can see with Rolex lately). No matter the marketing effort they're putting behind, there is a huge substance hole.

Omega is more product oriented.

 

Patek Philippe, yes high level coupled with over inflated prices as of late (Chinese market bubble). I totally agree; their high end pieces are something to collect, however I personally cannot imagine putting on my wrist their current main line collection.

 

I like A. Lange und Söhne a lot; especially how they adorn the mechanism; the dials are however really flat and uninspiring. 

This one is nice to look at: 

post #1829 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan'l View Post

@Dino944, some great insights into the Lange 1 discussion and we share many of the same opinions, though you expressed yourself so much more eloquently. smile.gif

I thought that one of the 1815 models would be my first Lange, but I am getting draw back to the L1. Actually, I've liked it in the past, but sort of discounted it, since it is slightly out of my price range. Plus, if a watch has a date function, I would prefer it to be an automatic. I am such a fickle person!

Anyways, I read a bit more about the L1 and learned that the case has screwed-on lugs. Never heard of this "feature" before and found it interesting. I guess the idea is that the lugs can be removed in order to polish the case. Not sure how I feel about it, in the sense if it would matter to me that the lugs are not integral to the case. Anyone know if the other ALS models also have screwed-on lugs?

Thank you, and I'm glad you enjoyed my post.  Its always nice to share thoughts on watches with like minded people. 

 

The 1815 is a great watch and I've met many people that really have enjoyed owning them.  However, if your heart is pulling you toward the L1, maybe you need to save up a bit longer, and see whether it is a possibility.

 

Yes, there are other models from Lange with lugs screwed on, but I don't know if that is true of all of their watches.  Personally, I have no issue with the lugs being screwed on as it allows for greater precision, should one choose to have a watch case refinished.  Also, as the lugs are substantial and curve along with the case,  and are very sturdy compared to when non-integrated lugs are merely soldered on to a case.  You are probably already aware that many watch lugs are not "Integral" to the case and are merely welded/soldered on to it.  As many here know, I would never consider Patek 5119 (or any Patek) with that style of lug/case design as I have personally seen one that was bumped against something solid and the lug broke right off of the watch.  My local AD told me he had seen that happen with that style of Patek in the past (hence if looking at round Pateks, I'd be looking for a case more along the design of the 5115 where the lugs are part of the case).  

 

Wishing you luck with whatever you decide.:cheers:

post #1830 of 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaus View Post
 

Wonderful post! :) 

 

as for designs that started with a purpose, the "dive" watches are my absolute favorite since they have that ceramic bezel (that makes away with the metallic rim). Actually I adore the ceramic bezels :D 

For everyday wear I was looking at Blancpain, however, their "history" coupled with their modern marketing positioning has put me a little off; not to mention their lack of innovation (as we can see with Rolex lately). No matter the marketing effort they're putting behind, there is a huge substance hole.

Omega is more product oriented.

 

Patek Philippe, yes high level coupled with over inflated prices as of late (Chinese market bubble). I totally agree; their high end pieces are something to collect, however I personally cannot imagine putting on my wrist their current main line collection.

 

I like A. Lange und Söhne a lot; especially how they adorn the mechanism; the dials are however really flat and uninspiring. 

This one is nice to look at: 

Thanks!  Yes, I like diving watches also.  Its another example of a purpose designed watch that has become mainstream.  They tend to be a great choice for active people as they can be worn for almost any activity or event, other than when one may really want a true dress watch. 

 

Blancpain, makes a very nice product, but for what they cost there is almost always something else I would rather own.  Not to mention, I do not like the Bathyscaphe, which I find very generic looking.  Around here, BP is a very tough watch to sell, or resell.  Most of my former local ADs were discounting them heavily as they just couldn't move them, and eventually they stopped carrying BP.

 

I like GO products, provided its not the Pano model, which I won't go into here, as many people here already know of my lack of love for that model.  However, they do make great products that are very competitively priced.  Cheers! 

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