The Mitchell Report

Originally Posted by bcate3

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the clemens accusation, while not entirely surprising, is huge since it jeopardizes his chances as a first ballot HOFer. Reports say that he started around '99, about the same time as Bonds. I would contend that both had HOF worthy careers before they started using but I would be bothered if they made it on the first ballot.

Yeah, but he got about 120 wins (1/3) of the total from 99-07. In other words, about 1/3 of his wins happened after age 36. This is a clearly a testament to effective use of chemicals. Nothing takes away from the enormous talent base that he built upon.

I am with Costas in that I would judge him compared to others in his era. The issue for me is whether Clemens performed well in the steroid era. However, the steroids certainly slam the door on intergenerational comparisons.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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He gets in on the first ballot, easily.

I wouldn't be so sure. I imagine he will get in, but I would doubt it's on the first ballot. People don't like cheaters, sportswriters included, and I think they'll punish him by not voting him in right away.

Originally Posted by marc237

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The irony with Bonds is that many thought he could go the hall based on his pre-steroid performance.

Please. The only argument pre-99 about Bonds was whether he would be a unanimous first ballot HOFer, not whether he could go. If you look at his numbers from 90-98 you are looking at one of the greatest stretches in modern baseball history. Three MVPs and 7 top-5s in that time, great opb, tons of steals and HRs, great defense.

Originally Posted by bcate3

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A coworker of mine, one of the most knowledgeable baseball fans I know, contends that steroids helps leg strength which for a power pitcher is important. He points out that the pitchers on the list are power pitchers.
Leg strength is improved through lower body resistance work. As marc237 already said, having the advantage of quicker recovery definitely gives steroid users a leg up in this department, if that is their focus.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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Clemens is accused of using steroids from the 1998 through 2001 seasons, during which he won two Cy Young awards. If you discount those awards, he still has five Cy Youngs. He gets in on the first ballot, easily. Steroid accusations will harm marginal HOFers like Palmeiro and McGwire.
So is Bonds. Problem is, many voters have gone on public that they would not vote for Bonds on the first ballot, or any ballot, on principles. If so, it's only fair if Clemens receive the same treatment.

Originally Posted by bcate3

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A coworker of mine, one of the most knowledgeable baseball fans I know, contends that steroids helps leg strength which for a power pitcher is important. He points out that the pitchers on the list are power pitchers.

I agree. Clemens and Petite do massive leg workouts. The recovery time between workouts and preserved strength between workouts is clearly a function of the juice. Pro bodybuilders can do crippling workouts twice a day 5-6 times per week because of the chemical assist. I seriously doubt Clemens could have continued to power pitch well into his 40s otherwise.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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Please. The only argument pre-99 about Bonds was whether he would be a unanimous first ballot HOFer, not whether he could go. If you look at his numbers from 90-98 you are looking at one of the greatest stretches in modern baseball history. Three MVPs and 7 top-5s in that time, great opb, tons of steals and HRs, great defense.

We do not disagree. I wasn't asserting that there was controversy, merely that there is irony.

What a bunch of assholes, I'd get rid of all of them.

Originally Posted by iammatt

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Please. The only argument pre-99 about Bonds was whether he would be a unanimous first ballot HOFer, not whether he could go. If you look at his numbers from 90-98 you are looking at one of the greatest stretches in modern baseball history. Three MVPs and 7 top-5s in that time, great opb, tons of steals and HRs, great defense.

I think the argument has to be focused on weather he could have gotten as much production out of the later stage of his career had him not be on juice. I would say no.

I've trained with kids in the gym who are on juice, decreased recovery time and power it adds is just insane. Of course, its prob. like a double edged sword, becuase all the injuries big guys like Bonds and Clemens suffer are prob. somewhat related to steriod abuse.

Originally Posted by SuitingStyle

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Of course, its prob. like a double edged sword, becuase all the injuries big guys like Bonds and Clemens suffer are prob. somewhat related to steriod abuse.

I find this part fascinating. Look at how many guys on the list are in the "problems with injuries" camp. Rondell White, Mo Vaughn to name just two.

The list posted here is not the actual list from the report, but the "leaked" list that was put out Thurs morning.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...report/?page=1

Varitek is not included in the list. From the sox the two are pitchers Eric Gagne and Brendan Donnelly along with others from the past.

Originally Posted by whacked

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He hit 50 that season, IIRC.
I assume that was ironic? His career year was 1993, when he hit .305 with 19 home runs (his previous career high had been 10).

Dang that is looong. I did a quick search, and no mention of Pujols is to be found. Seems like the Houston Chronicle's leak was off.

Originally Posted by bcate3

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He points out that the pitchers on the list are power pitchers.
Well, some are, some aren't. Thus my earlier comment about Paul Byrd.

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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He gets in on the first ballot, easily.

I'm not so sure. I'm not taking issue with your argument about his merits, but I''m not sure a number of voters won't decide to "punish" him by withholding firt ballot votes. On the other hand, he won't be eligible for at least five years, so there's lots of time for the stigma to fade.

Clemens is said to have first used steroids in June 1998, after a Blue Jays series with the Marlins.

1998 record before alleged steroids use began: 6-6, 3.27 ERA
1998 record after alleged steroids use began: 14-0, 2.29 ERA

You still think he'll be a first ball HOFer?

Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser

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Clemens is said to have first used steroids in June 1998, after a Blue Jays series with the Marlins.

1998 record before alleged steroids use began: 6-6, 3.27 ERA
1998 record after alleged steroids use began: 14-0, 2.29 ERA

Interesting. But is it really likely that the effect of the steroids would be so immediate?

Originally Posted by CTGuy

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The list posted here is not the actual list from the report, but the "leaked" list that was put out Thurs morning.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...report/?page=1

Varitek is not included in the list. From the sox the two are pitchers Eric Gagne and Brendan Donnelly along with others from the past.

Neither is Trot Nixon, which appears to contradict the Houston Chronicle website. The sad thing is that, being a Sox fan and having watched them in and out every day, it would not have surprised me to have seen either Varitek or Nixon on the list (or Kevin Millar, for that matter). I'd also be surprised if Brett Boone or Brady Anderson were innocent, but the majority of the information comes from a former Mets clubhouse attendant and a former Yankees trainer, so if those guys weren't involved, it wasn't going to make the report for the most part. I was a bit surprised to see Brian Roberts' name in the report, but the sources for that claim appear particularly tenuous.