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Paris under attack again - Page 12

post #166 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

I agree with 2 liberals.

First, Chris Matthews, who says no Americans in combat until the able-bodied migrant Syrians are conscripted to fight for their own country.

What every european has been saying for years.
post #167 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

My FB feed is filled with negative reactions to various governors saying they aren't going to accept refuges, etc.  I thought it was pretty well established that the bombers were French/European citizens for the most part.

At least one was a refugee. It seems as though not accepting refugees would prove prudent whether the attackers were refugees themselves or offspring of previous muslim immigrants, no?
post #168 of 322
France is trying to recruit the U.S. to aid in its fight against ISIS. The French people are dismayed that our president is so aloof and feckless.

Now they want a warrior president? A strong American military presence?

Hmmm, it seems like just yesterday . . . . (wavvy flashback effects and music)


Quote:
For the Libyan raid, the United States was denied overflight rights by France, Spain, and Italy as well as the use of European continental bases, forcing the Air Force portion of the operation to be flown around France and Spain, over Portugal and through the Straits of Gibraltar, adding 1,300 miles (2,100 km) each way and requiring multiple aerial refuelings.[11] The French refusal alone added 2,800 km and was imposed despite the fact that France had itself been the target of terrorism directed by the Gaddafi government in Libya.[12] French president Mitterrand refused overflight clearance because the United States was interested in limited action in Libya while France was more interested in major action that would remove Gaddafi from power.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_Libya




And this . . . (more wavvy harp music)
Quote:
United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon praised the Nobel Committee's choice. "We are entering an era of renewed multilateralism [...] President Obama embodies the new spirit of dialogue and engagement on the world's biggest problems: climate change, nuclear disarmament and a wide range of peace and security challenges."

In Europe, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said the award would reinforce Obama's determination to work for justice and peace. He added that the award "finally confirms the return of America in the hearts of all the peoples of the world".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Nobel_Peace_Prize
post #169 of 322
I think it requires a bit context, right after 9/11 more or less everyone is with the US on Afghanistan. The disagreement was on Iraq
post #170 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post

I think it requires a bit context, right after 9/11 more or less everyone is with the US on Afghanistan.

 

And here we are 14 years later with the Peace Prize Dronebomber In Chief trying to use the same AUMF.

post #171 of 322
I find it saddening but unsurprising that people (almost exclusively on the right) immediately call for more immigration restriction and more bombings immediately after a tradgedy before we have all the facts sorted out. This is no different than gun grabbers trying to politicize a mass shooting and pass gun control laws.
post #172 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

I find it saddening but unsurprising that people (almost exclusively on the right) immediately call for more immigration restriction and more bombings immediately after a tradgedy before we have all the facts sorted out. This is no different than gun grabbers trying to politicize a mass shooting and pass gun control laws.


I'm not calling for more restrictions. The war is already lost. Its taken many years, but I'm at peace with the natural cycle of history, and the inevitability of war between cultures.
post #173 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

I find it saddening but unsurprising that people (almost exclusively on the right) immediately call for more immigration restriction and more bombings immediately after a tradgedy before we have all the facts sorted out. This is no different than gun grabbers trying to politicize a mass shooting and pass gun control laws.

The difference being that the left wants to take away constitutionally protected rights of Americans, while the right only wants to slightly slow the flood of foreigners into our country.

As far as bombing the people who have already claimed responsibility, how can you have an issue with that?
post #174 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

The difference being that the left wants to take away constitutionally protected rights of Americans, while the right only wants to slightly slow the flood of foreigners into our country.

As far as bombing the people who have already claimed responsibility, how can you have an issue with that?

Bullshit the mainstream right opinion is to completely shut off immigration from everywhere.
post #175 of 322
I'm all for immigration, as long as the immigrants are self-supporting, rich, conservative, speak fluent English, are Christian or of Christian provenance, reject multiculturalism, and are loyal to the U.S.
post #176 of 322
There's a big difference between expats, migrants and refugees. What lighthouse is talking about is the first.
post #177 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


The difference being that the left wants to take away constitutionally protected rights of Americans, while the right only wants to slightly slow the flood of foreigners into our country.

As far as bombing the people who have already claimed responsibility, how can you have an issue with that?

 

Let's parse that a bit.

 

On immigration, you said "slow[ing] the flood" of immigration.

 

I wouldn't characterize our immigration situation as a flood.  Less than 1% of our population is new immigrants every year, and we're not in the top 20:

 


However, our total immigration population is increasing since 1970.

 

Relatively speaking, that isn't very high:

 

I can't find data in the WW2 era or turn of the 20th century because I am curious how it compares.  Also, if you think about it, we're down from 100%, so our immigrant population is falling given a long enough time frame ;)
 

 

Changing to the bombing question.  I don't think dropping bombs in another country is the most effective counter.  Do you think the poor, dirt farmers in Libya, Iraq, etc know about the Paris bombings?  They sure will see the bombs falling at home and it won't be hard for ISIS to convince them that we're the evil aggressors.

Additionally, while they probably were involved, just because they claimed to be doesn't mean we should start bombing them the next day.  Again though, the people actually perpetuating the bombings and shootings, appear to be mostly European citizens.  Everyone keeps going "but there was one Syrian refugee" but there were also multiple French and Belgian citizens.

post #178 of 322
The immigration figures don't tell the story. The figures are shockingly high, BTW. The left is concerned that the murders will stop the flow of economic migrants into Europe. This misses the point.

Much more damning is the fact that citizens are involved. Frenchman and Belgians--in name only--whose families have been here for generations. Muslims have and will continue to colonize Europe, and jihidis will continue to wage war against their fellow citizens.


From the NYT:

Quote:
But fighting a “terrorist army” at home is a different kind of war. Americans have experienced this, except that the enemy they fought after 9/11 was foreign. In Europe, the terrorists we are confronted with are our fellow citizens, born and bred in our societies. “This is a new operational mode,” Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said Sunday on French television, “a group in Syria directing French people in Belgium to commit attacks in France.” Suicide bombers used to be a Middle East phenomenon; the Middle East war has now spread to our soil.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/opinion/frances-war-within.html?ref=opinion&_r=0
post #179 of 322
GER - NED match, in Hannover, cancelled due to security reasons. Stadium is being evacuated, apparently suspicious persons have been spotted around the stadium.. Edit: Or it was a suitcase inside the stadium..
post #180 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


Relatively speaking, that isn't very high:

The European statistics are distorted because of people moving around within the EU. Unless I'm mistaken they also frequently count the children of foreigners as foreigners rather than automatically making them all citizens. The numbers are not comparable.

ETA: Switzerland, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Switzerland
Quote:
Permanent residents by nationality

In 2013 there were a total of 1,937,447 permanent residents (23.8% of the total population of 8.14 million) in Switzerland.[10][11] The majority (1.65 million, 85% of the total and 20.2% of the total) came from Europe.
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