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Neckties: A Discussion Thread - Page 63

post #931 of 1082
David, thanks as always. Your perspective has always been of great value to me and everyone in this thread. And if this is your quick answer I look forward to the long one!

I wonder if The difference you note in Cappellis is due to bespoke versus rtw as he does sell to stores as rtw.

Some of the differences you note, will be subtle, some less so. Do let us know how we might spot the difference. I suspect evenness of stitching requires dissection to reveal it but the balance to the sides and stitching at the join point might be noticeable to some extent. Difference in Interlining might be noticeable immediately and over time, etc.
post #932 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

David, thanks as always. Your perspective has always been of great value to me and everyone in this thread. And if this is your quick answer I look forward to the long one!

I wonder if The difference you note in Cappellis is due to bespoke versus rtw as he does sell to stores as rtw.

Some of the differences you note, will be subtle, some less so. Do let us know how we might spot the difference. I suspect evenness of stitching requires dissection to reveal it but the balance to the sides and stitching at the join point might be noticeable to some extent. Difference in Interlining might be noticeable immediately and over time, etc.

TweedyProf,

My pleasure to help - a long answer would probably need some illustrations to be useful. I will do it as time allows.

Bespoke vs Ready made is a good theory and may very well be the answer in addition to, not instead of my guess of in-house vs contract.

Sometimes you can see loose stitches up and down the back of the tie - very easy to see.

Very easy to see a tie tip that is not formed correctly irregular shape and sort of a puckered look at times.

Rolled edges take a long time to do correctly and the maker could do a very good job if they wanted to but they typically won't be able to put the time into it. I have not seen really good rolled edges like ours in Italy but I have seen some beautiful edges from France pocket squares they also have some very nice fabric.

Low end interlining can often be felt by someone with experience wearing ties - no need to be a tie maker.
post #933 of 1082
Thanks David. This hand rolled edge seems very tight and well done to me. A Drakes madder that I'm actually letting go of but the best of my Drakes.

post #934 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

Thanks David. This hand rolled edge seems very tight and well done to me. A Drakes madder that I'm actually letting go of but the best of my Drakes.


From the photo look straight at the tip on the left side at the point it is not as it could be - also this is a good example, I have seen many ties from England with poor rolled edges.

In person looking at the tie I might not like the balance of the folding - but I can't comment from the photo.

When you are working very slowly you rarely get that irregular look and whoever is checking if making a luxury tie will have the work redone. At Drakes price point every small detail should be perfect.
post #935 of 1082

Here's the set. I was commenting more on the tightness of the roll which I think took more effort than their standard rolled edge which is larger.

 

I would say that the sides aren't balanced as you walk up the edge (see left versus right in the above picture), but at that point, I feel that I'm being knit picky. These are subtle points that don't detract from my enjoyment of the tie. However, if I paid $165-200 for the tie (the cost of their madders in England), I would expect something closer to perfection. So, I agree with you there. 

 

But I'm quite happy with the tie overall. I'd just like a smaller pattern.

 

 

 

post #936 of 1082

It's tricky to rank tiemakers. Lots of personal preferences of course, and you will need a pretty substantial selection to be able to pass judgement. As has been stated previously in the thread makers have different specialities and house traditions so it is perfectly possible to have, say, a great cashmere tie from one maker and a sloppy 7-fold linen tie from the same maker.

 

I agree that Drake's don't make the best constructed ties in the world and also agree that their quality was more consistent a few years back. But their position as probably the most influential tiemaker of the last decade or so is hard to overlook. Would we wear handrolled ties and madder fabrics to the same extent today without Drake's? They have almost managed to make wearing ties cool again. I guess that counts for something.

 

Cappelli gets a lot of love today in SF. Deservedly so, in terms of a quality/price ratio they are hard to beat. That being said, I don't think that Cappelli quite reaches the same level of quality like Kiton, Attolini and Marinella, to name a few examples. I would probably put Dolcepunta in that bracket too but they are hard to get hold of and I only have 3 or 4 ties from them, but they are all outstandingly well made. Borrelli is also a good choice since you get a tie from them that is very close in quality compared with Kiton, but rather less expensive (but very far from cheap!).

 

Then of course it is impossible not to mention some of the French makers. Charvet usually go the safe way in terms of construction and stick to the 3-fold, but their silk fabrics (especially the woven silks) are second to none. And I don't think Boivin is far behind. Possibly the best maker of madders that I know of.

 

And then there there is a wealth of other makers of course, quite a few artisanal ones as well which is always interesting. My Collection is approaching the 500 mark rapidly...


Edited by DiplomaticTies - 9/6/16 at 3:42am
post #937 of 1082

I live by a 20 tie rule for cold seasons and warm seasons. Mostly just to challenge myself (I'm actually at 24 or so for F/W). Many people think I have too many ties! 

 

@DiplomaticTies Thanks for your thoughts. I would be curious to see pics of one of your Kiton ties, especially if untipped. I haven't handled one of them myself, and am curious if they are clearly worth the premium ($300) construction wise. I understand one is paying for the brand here as well. This was the first tie that came up when I googled Kiton ties.

 

 

If I had to mention a pet peeve: on the pattern at the tip, I would expect perfect symmetry where the fold is at the pattern. Some makers pay no attention to this, and I hope deliberately (e.g. Drake's where the blade is folded wherever the pattern happens to be).

 

Some do, which I like, because it means that there was an extra step in the process where the sewer folded the tip to match the pattern on both sides. The effect above is subtle, but then, I might have paid $300 for it and demanded "perfection" (photo from Neiman Marcus).

 

Cf. this bespoke Cappelli on the right. The Kiton is just slightly off. Hard to do, I know, but that's part of what we appreciate in a well-crafted tie. Of course, other parts of the tie matter, and even more so. This is just one things that I look for when examining a tie.

 

post #938 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

I live by a 20 tie rule for cold seasons and warm seasons. Mostly just to challenge myself (I'm actually at 24 or so for F/W). Many people think I have too many ties! 

 

@DiplomaticTies Thanks for your thoughts. I would be curious to see pics of one of your Kiton ties, especially if untipped. I haven't handled one of them myself, and am curious if they are clearly worth the premium ($300) construction wise. I understand one is paying for the brand here as well. This was the first tie that came up when I googled Kiton ties.

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

If I had to mention a pet peeve: on the pattern at the tip, I would expect perfect symmetry where the fold is at the pattern. Some makers pay no attention to this, and I hope deliberately (e.g. Drake's where the blade is folded wherever the pattern happens to be).

 

Some do, which I like, because it means that there was an extra step in the process where the sewer folded the tip to match the pattern on both sides. The effect above is subtle, but then, I might have paid $300 for it and demanded "perfection" (photo from Neiman Marcus).

 

Cf. this bespoke Cappelli on the right. The Kiton is just slightly off. Hard to do, I know, but that's part of what we appreciate in a well-crafted tie. Of course, other parts of the tie matter, and even more so. This is just one things that I look for when examining a tie.

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

I have a lot of pictures of me wearing Kiton ties, but I rarely take pictures that will give you a closer look on how the tie is constructed. But here are a few examples:

 

 

 

 

 

From the top the fabrics are: silk, silk, linen/cashmere, cashmere, linen/silk. All of them are 7-folds. The bottom 3 are untipped. I think that sometimes we put too much emphasis on the number of folds. That doesn't really determine the quality of a tie. Dolcepunta and Isaia even makes a 9-fold and I've heard rumours that there are even 11-folds. It's exaggerated. But when it comes to Kiton specifically there is no doubt in my mind that the 7-fold is what they do best.

 

Concerning patterns and matching I do get your point but I myself actually prefer a little more nonchalance. The tie in itself is seen nowadays as a very formal item, I like to get away from the stuffiness. That's one of the things Drake's do really well.

 

As to the price, what can you say? 300 is a ridiculous amount of money for a tie. But there are often ways to find Kitons for lower prices. Keep a lookout for sales of course, but there are also quite a number of sellers on Ebay that sell genuine Kitons from earlier seasons at more palatable prices.


Edited by DiplomaticTies - 9/6/16 at 7:10am
post #939 of 1082

I shouldn't have brought price into it since I think the discussion was focused on construction so let's keep it there (my bad). If you like the tie and can afford the price, more power to you.

 

I think we're largely at the point of very subtle effects unless a tie is shoddily constructed, and I mean shoddily constructed for a high-end maker (so not obvious to people who don't pay attention to ties).

 

Then, for us non-makers, we can look at the balance at the tip, the tightness and uniformity of the roll, the sewing at the visible parts, the presence of a slip stitch, the balance from left to right on the back of the blade, etc. But for the makers in question, I think the differences will be subtle and then, unless we have a shoddy outlier in hand, subjective preference is what matters.

 

I don't think the pattern at the tip matters so long as it's "straight". My Drake's are all "unmatched" in the way that the Kiton and the Cappelli are intentionally matched, though one better than the other. Charitably, I have assumed that Drake's doesn't worry about that detail as a sort of sartorial nonchalance. Fine, I appreciate that too, but I appreciate the effort someone in Naples made to carefully fold the tip of the blade on my Cappelli and sew it so that the symmetry was, to my eye, perfect. 

 

I suppose we should have someone do for ties what Jeffery Diduch did for bespoke suits, a deconstruction and examination of the construction. I don't expect David to do that, of course!

post #940 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

I shouldn't have brought price into it since I think the discussion was focused on construction so let's keep it there (my bad). If you like the tie and can afford the price, more power to you.

 

 

Well, I think you were right to bring price into the discussion. In a forum like this we have all long ago lost the capacity to judge if a piece of clothing is really worth the money compared to the essential things in the world (assuming that we don't count sartorial things as essential). But price is still relevant as a factor in determining quality. 

 

Sometimes these questions are easy to answer. Mr Porter just started selling Prada and charges 160€ for their ties. Are they worth that? In my experience, absolutely not. But is a Kiton tie 50$ better than a similar tie from Borrelli? Is a Borrelli tie 50$ better than Cappelli? Then it becomes trickier. It becomes even more complicated when you look at the bigger brands which don't make their ties themselves. Makers like Petronius, Formicola, Boivin, Drake's etc make quite a lot of ties for other, usually bigger, brands. But the prices still varies. This is of course even more common for suits, jackets and shirts. I have a suit from Caruso which is identical in every single detail to a suit they made for RLPL. But my suit was almost half the price that RLPL charged. So I do believe that price is an important factor as well.

post #941 of 1082

Reading DiplomaticTies' comment on 500 ties, I am inspired to throw caution to the wind and order some ties I was looking at.

Seeing TweedyProf's image of a handrolled printed silk tie, my brain is jogged to ask a question:

 

What is the current preferred construction to order from the somewhat byzantine Cappelli site and achieve an optimal tie? I realize that "optimal" may vary here, but I refer to the discussion that has been frequently had in the EGC thread on varying quality of results in terms of thickness and folds being used in configurations that are not ideal, and of the stock ties having a way too thick interlining.

 

I'm looking at printed silks. Obviously the easiest way to avoid unintended thickness is get the "unlined" (= light lining and hand rolled edge) option, but I've always felt that hand rolled edges are a bit out of place on a dressier foulard tie, which is the ones I was looking at. Anyone care to weigh in? I assume you are all one-time or current Cappelli customers. I'm thinking something in the way of Vanda construction or slightly heavier. My past Cappelli ties are all over the place construction/wearability wise, some good, some great, some weird.

post #942 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

I shouldn't have brought price into it since I think the discussion was focused on construction so let's keep it there (my bad). If you like the tie and can afford the price, more power to you.

I think we're largely at the point of very subtle effects unless a tie is shoddily constructed, and I mean shoddily constructed for a high-end maker (so not obvious to people who don't pay attention to ties).

Then, for us non-makers, we can look at the balance at the tip, the tightness and uniformity of the roll, the sewing at the visible parts, the presence of a slip stitch, the balance from left to right on the back of the blade, etc. But for the makers in question, I think the differences will be subtle and then, unless we have a shoddy outlier in hand, subjective preference is what matters.

I don't think the pattern at the tip matters so long as it's "straight". My Drake's are all "unmatched" in the way that the Kiton and the Cappelli are intentionally matched, though one better than the other. Charitably, I have assumed that Drake's doesn't worry about that detail as a sort of sartorial nonchalance. Fine, I appreciate that too, but I appreciate the effort someone in Naples made to carefully fold the tip of the blade on my Cappelli and sew it so that the symmetry was, to my eye, perfect. 

I suppose we should have someone do for ties what Jeffery Diduch did for bespoke suits, a deconstruction and examination of the construction. I don't expect David to do that, of course!


TweedyProf,

Bringing price into the discussion is not a mistake as it is part of the charm of a well made tie - not how it is expensive but the opposite if you can find a well made tie with a fabric that you like that you can wear for years then it is not expensive at all. Divide the price by the number of years that you wear it. The same for shirts and suits.

Normally all luxury tie makers do a fairly good job and the silk is almost always beautifully made. Drakes for example has a strong point in selecting some wonderfully classic fabrics.

Don't be concerned about the presence of a slip stitch and cutting on a bias all good ties are fine in that respect.

In some ways the construction of a luxury tie is easy to feel and is the sum total of the parts. But this is subjective and I am trying to stay away from subjective comments although in the end beauty is always in the eye of the beholder...

Taking a tie apart does not serve much purpose when it is just as easy to comment on making a tie. Although when you take a tie apart you can see the type of interlining used and some sewing details.

I remember walking into the Charvet shop a long time ago and being amazed at their poor construction - by this I mean they had ties for sale with labels falling off - which is a telltale indicator of other construction problems.

They do have some beautiful silks with contrasting warps and weft silk. In some ways their claim to fame is based on a wide variety of colors especially for their shirts which I admire very much.

I don't see a difference between the construction quality of 7-folds and 3-folds within the major brands either they make a good tie or they don't.

Keep in mind almost any tie maker in Italy can make a truly great luxury tie if they want to - it is just a matter of time and energy. all the Italian name brands are about equal in construction. The very expensive prices are due to their brand name and designs - that is it. Although a company like Hermes does some very beautiful prints which are expensive to do and they throw out the imperfect prints rather than selling them - I admire this and it is a good objective indicator of quality.

7, 9 and 11 folds etc normally do not serve a practical purpose - but again beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



Diplomatic Ties,

I love your tie photos (also your pocket squares) you look great and you would look comfortable in a classic movie. I could picture you sitting at the bar in a dinner jazz place waiting for someone to arrive at midnight.

"But their position as probably the most influential tiemaker of the last decade or so is hard to overlook. Would we wear handrolled ties and madder fabrics to the same extent today without Drake's?"


I respect your point of view but softly, gently and diplomatically I would suggest that Drakes has not had much influence on ties as most men have never heard of them and madder type styles have been around for a very long time and have never gone out of style. As for rolled edges Drakes is not very good at them and not so well known for them. Forums such as StyleForum have had more influence on rolled edges than Drakes.

As for silk quality once you get to a certain level all the luxury tie makers use roughly equal quality silk - some will do small runs of silk which drives the price up a bit. There are really only a handful of silk weavers left that have 100+ years of experience and they are all good and sell to the same group of luxury companies.

Cappelli is a mystery to me as I have seen very different construction qualities that they have made but their well made ties are equal to Kiton etc in construction. If you have objective reasons to say that Kiton or some other tie makers are better at construction than Cappelli at their best please let us know as I am very curious.

Note I am not talking about a better brand name or elegant design just old fashioned construction.
post #943 of 1082
^ you mention the expensive printed silks used by Hermes; what about their construction. I have heard from friends that own many of them that they periodically need to be relined as they tend to twist. Is that a defect in construction or the choice of lining they use?
post #944 of 1082

Question: Is it ever a good idea to remove the lining from a tie? I have a nice tweed tie that I rarely wear because it is too thick for my liking, however I can't bring myself to throw it away because it is so nice otherwise. Can this, or should this, be attempted?

post #945 of 1082

@sprout2 

 

I speak to Patrizio Cappelli directly about what I want, and at this point, I have a good relation with him, and I might dare to call him a friend. Indeed, I just trust him to deal with the fabric to achieve the effect that I want, which really is just a light and airy drape and an elegant knot. I have not ever had a problem with his ties, but I never go through the website. I'm curious about the deficiencies you've perceived (granted, even the best can fail to provide a satisfying product).

 

@Sam Hober

Thanks for your thoughts. My requirements are pretty small: I trust the maker and my relationship with them. I value beautiful fabrics, constructed in a way where they wear, to my mind, beautifully, and have, to my eye, the right details done with (again to my eye) appropriate care (e.g. the pattern alignment at the tip). Matters small in scale, but enough to provide genuine pleasure in life. 

 

@DiplomaticTies on the fold issue, I suspect that the request for multiple folds by the buyer doesn't add too much to the tie, quality wise, beyond the appreciation of the extra fabric. I've had three six-folds in my life, two from Borrelli which were excellent ties but not, I believe, due to the six-fold nature. They knotted well and the quality seemed high. I have a Vanda six-fold from Holland and Sherry cloth that I'm wearing today, and it is clear that the extra folds adds to the unique voluminousness of the tie. That was the maker's choice, but knowing them, an intentional one to create the effect where a three-fold would not.

 

Edit: @Caustic Man David Hober would be the expert here but I don't see why not especially if you might discard the tie though you like the fabric. The Vanda mentioned above is, I believe, unlined, but holds a good knot. I've had Tiecrafters narrow ties (indeed the Borelli's I mentioned above) and they did a good job. Sprout2 had a different experience with them, I think. But if you like the fabric, I don't see the harm in trying.

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