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Neckties: A Discussion Thread - Page 62

post #916 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Hober View Post

Not so sure about that as an absolute statement - perhaps true as a personal preference...

As traditional silk weavers we judge by many criteria and the dye, raw silk quality, weave quality etc is very similar for all those tie makers - very, very good. Occasionally there will be some quality differences but overall very good and very similar - from what I have seen.

Construction is another story and the Italian makers are better than Drakes.

David, I'm very interested in elaboration of the last point on construction. Would you say more?
post #917 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

David, I'm very interested in elaboration of the last point on construction. Would you say more?

Drakes don't strike me as particularly high quality, for whatever it's worth.

Disclaimer: I'm really not at all a fan of Drakes ties.
post #918 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post

Drakes don't strike me as particularly high quality, for whatever it's worth.

Disclaimer: I'm really not at all a fan of Drakes ties.

Well, depends on how you judge quality. You might have a threshold that you don't think they meet or you might judge them to be lower than other tie makers. David spoke about construction which is what I'm interested in hearing more about. But I took the differences to be subtle not drastic.

For example, Drakes English sources for fabrics are presumably no less inferior than those coming out of Italian makers: madders, macclesfield, various wools and tweeds. The sources are the same. I can't speak for Italian fabrics.

Perhaps they cut corners on interlining, though I've not had problems with most of my Drakes in terms of knot or drape, save one where I think some poor choices were made that were not sensitive to the fabric thickness and blade width (i.e. They could have done better). Hand rolling is good though Hober hand rolling looks even tighter.

So not sure why you say they are not of high quality. I don't think their quality justifies the retail price ($145) and have never paid close to that for their ties. Indeed, I don't think anything justifies standard Drakes pricing or higher unless it's the fabric, both quality and quantity. So a $200 three fold tie really boggles the mind, especially when you can get quality bespoke at half that.
post #919 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

Well, depends on how you judge quality. You might have a threshold that you don't think they meet or you might judge them to be lower than other tie makers. David spoke about construction which is what I'm interested in hearing more about. But I took the differences to be subtle not drastic.

For example, Drakes English sources for fabrics are presumably no less inferior than those coming out of Italian makers: madders, macclesfield, various wools and tweeds. The sources are the same. I can't speak for Italian fabrics.

Perhaps they cut corners on interlining, though I've not had problems with most of my Drakes in terms of knot or drape, save one where I think some poor choices were made that were not sensitive to the fabric thickness and blade width (i.e. They could have done better). Hand rolling is good though Hober hand rolling looks even tighter.

So not sure why you say they are not of high quality. I don't think their quality justifies the retail price ($145) and have never paid close to that for their ties. Indeed, I don't think anything justifies standard Drakes pricing or higher unless it's the fabric, both quality and quantity. So a $200 three fold tie really boggles the mind, especially when you can get quality bespoke at half that.

Perhaps I should amend it to say I don't like it at all, given the value proposition.

I've always found the knot to be a bit wimpier than I prefer, but that's more a product of their skinnier than ideal (subjective, of course) width.

I just can't justify paying for their products (ties only, I do like their squares) when there are many drastically superior options out there at cheaper pricing.
post #920 of 1082
One can find their ties for 75-85 USDs especially at season's end. At that point, the quality to cost ratio is higher..
post #921 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post

Drakes don't strike me as particularly high quality, for whatever it's worth.

Disclaimer: I'm really not at all a fan of Drakes ties.

Well, depends on how you judge quality. [...]

 

It also depends on precisely which tie you are talking about.  Drakes has been in the tie business for a very long time.

 

I've got an older Drake's grenadine and it knots better than any of my other more recent grenadines from other makers.

 

I've got one or two printed silks from Drakes which are fine, but nothing outstanding.

 

I think we need to avoid broad brushes.   It's perfectly possible, for a hypothetical example, for the same maker to produce top-notch wool ties and indifferent linen ties.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac

post #922 of 1082

Also pursuant to the current discussion, I think we need to distinguish between quality and value-for-the-money.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac

post #923 of 1082
My older Drakes are better, for me, than the newer ties

Relatively speaking the newer ties come at a higher cost with less appealing, for me, spec'.

Bespoke options are more limited, in comparison to others, and come at a greater premium.
post #924 of 1082
The points about value aside, I hope to hear about construction differences between Drakes and Italian makers. I have owned Borrelli and now a number of Cappellis, both which I like very much, and a number of Drakes regarding which I have little complaints . On issue of construction I am genuinely hard pressed to notice a significant difference. So I hope David Hober might weigh in at some point.

I prefer Cappellis because of the bespoke aspect which allows me to have the specs I want.
post #925 of 1082
I am also interested in hearing more about Drakes' construction and why it may be inferior to that of Italian makers (and which Italian makers are you specifically referring). I own a lot of Drakes ties and have no complaints about their make.
post #926 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

One can find their ties for 75-85 USDs especially at season's end. At that point, the quality to cost ratio is higher..

 

Why buy them at season's end when you can have them for $300 at the Armoury!

post #927 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprout2 View Post
 

 

Why buy them at season's end when you can have them for $300 at the Armoury!


I can only dream of such elite status.

post #928 of 1082

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post #929 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

David, I'm very interested in elaboration of the last point on construction. Would you say more?

TweedyProf,

I will give a brief answer now - (early morning for me and I out the door shortly to take the kids to school) and a more detailed one later.

But before continuing I must say that Sprout2 is a true marketing genius and I shall have to consult with him in the future on new silk designs... smiling.

Tie Construction from a maker's point of view:

The biggest single point of tie construction is the time taken to make a tie.

Paying attention to small details is what makes a great tie and this can't be done quickly.

How do we know about Drake's and Cappelli ties?

We have received many emails from customers who tell me that when they can't find a design that they want with us they go to Cappelli.

Occasionally a customer likes a pattern enough that even if too wide or long they buy it - and then send it to us to be remade - we have worked on Drakes and Cappelli ties.

During the remaking we completely take apart the tie and then put it back together as requested. This allows us to look very closely at the style of construction.

What we see and objectively judge by is the evenness of the stitches and the speed of sewing - with slow being better.

Next we look at the overall fit and finish as in is the shape balanced on both sides - is the sewing perfect where silk is joined together?

Subjective is the choice of interlining does it match the silk? Objective is the interlining pure wool and is it a high grade of interlining wool? You can find cheap pure wool interlining in China but it won't drape as well as the best Italian interlining wool.

I will write more later but for now I can tell you that Drakes uses great classic fabrics and that they are an OK construction but not great.

Cappelli uses some nice fabrics and overall tends to sew ties better than Drakes. But something interesting is that not all of Cappelli's ties are sewn with the same quality some are clearly better than others - why - I don't know. Maybe they make some in house and some are contracted out?

But Cappelli's prices on their website are better than Drakes. If you have patience I think that you can get whatever you want from Cappelli at a reasonable price. Drakes from their website does not make what I view as a true bespoke or custom made tie - more of a made to measure. But maybe if you go there in person you can get what you want? I really don't know.
post #930 of 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprout2 View Post

Why buy them at season's end when you can have them for $300 at the Armoury!

Sadly, some of the Armoury offerings I like (TYT and Mattabisch mostly), but they're soooooooo damn expensive.
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