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Migrants, Immigrants, Refugees, and Aliens in Euro-Zone - Page 148

post #2206 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Terrorists don't think like that. Their aims were achieved when they killed a bunch of people.

 

Ah, no. Maybe the people who blow themselves up don't think like that, but the people that send them to blow themselves up certainly do think of the long game. That's what terrorism is all about - bringing the fight to the enemy, creating fear, creating panic, getting your enemy to change in response to your attacks. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

Yet the article doesn't compare all the freedom we've given up for causes that harm even fewer people than Islamic terrorism. This is a silly example, but think of all the shit we do now because of the lack of tort reform. We all accept it as normal now that every truck in America has to have a screeching backup alarm. That every product has to come with the stupidest warning labels imaginable. That a simple fender bender costs $3,000 in repairs because of stupid regulations about crashworthiness. All in a vain attempt to thwart natural selection. prevent lawsuits.

 

As you said, it's a silly example. Putting reversing beepers on trucks is a very different matter from the PATRIOT Act, from draconian and ever-enlarging surveillance, from keeping people without charging or trying them for years on end. 

 

I don't want to be blown up by a fanatic, but it's important to keep some perspective here. The actual risk of someone in a western country being killed in a terrorist attack is vanishingly, vanishingly small. In the US, you've got a far, far, far greater chance of being killed by some western whacko with a gun and yet no-one is willing to tackle gun control, but politicians of every stripe are happy to sign up to more and more law-and-order programs, at massive cost, that will supposedly make us all feel safer and protect us from being blown up. 

post #2207 of 2656
^ WTC alone killed circa 2000 people so I guess that's statistic is conviently post 9/11. Anyway that's only one issue. Other is in general muslim migrants integrate worse than most other migrants, cause more problems and make societies in Europe in many ways a shittier place for natives to live in. I don't see any benefit in having them in my country compared to say ukrainians. Fortunately my country is relatively poor so they don't want to come here. What's the point of having millions of brainwashed, backwards people in your country? Lowers your standard of living and potentially endangers your way of life in case you have 'small' country like Sweden.
post #2208 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
 

I don't want to be blown up by a fanatic, but it's important to keep some perspective here. The actual risk of someone in a western country being killed in a terrorist attack is vanishingly, vanishingly small. In the US, you've got a far, far, far greater chance of being killed by some western whacko with a gun and yet no-one is willing to tackle gun control, but politicians of every stripe are happy to sign up to more and more law-and-order programs, at massive cost, that will supposedly make us all feel safer and protect us from being blown up. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

^ WTC alone killed circa 2000 people so I guess that's statistic is conviently post 9/11. 

 

I think that you should think more about what "risk" means. 

 

Yes, the Sept 11 2001 attacks killed quite a few people, but that was a one-off occurrence. 

 

People worrying about terrorist attacks are like people worrying about being eaten by a shark when swimming in the sea - they've got a much, much, much greater chance of being killed in a car accident driving to and from the beach than they do being attacked by a shark while they're actually at the beach, but they don't think about the risk of car accident. 

 

People tend to have curious blind-spots about lots of things and I think that people are freaked out by terrorist attacks and shark attacks because they seem random and uncontrollable, whereas people (largely incorrectly) think that they have control over whether they are involved in a car accident or in a gun incident or other crime. Certain things loom larger in people's minds, rightly or wrongly, and terrorism is one of those things - which, of course, is why it can be a successful strategy for terrorists. 

post #2209 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
 

I don't want to be blown up by a fanatic, but it's important to keep some perspective here. The actual risk of someone in a western country being killed in a terrorist attack is vanishingly, vanishingly small. In the US, you've got a far, far, far greater chance of being killed by some western whacko with a gun and yet no-one is willing to tackle gun control, but politicians of every stripe are happy to sign up to more and more law-and-order programs, at massive cost, that will supposedly make us all feel safer and protect us from being blown up. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

^ WTC alone killed circa 2000 people so I guess that's statistic is conviently post 9/11. 

 

I think that you should think more about what "risk" means. 

 

Yes, the Sept 11 2001 attacks killed quite a few people, but that was a one-off occurrence. 

 

People worrying about terrorist attacks are like people worrying about being eaten by a shark when swimming in the sea - they've got a much, much, much greater chance of being killed in a car accident driving to and from the beach than they do being attacked by a shark while they're actually at the beach, but they don't think about the risk of car accident. 

 

People tend to have curious blind-spots about lots of things and I think that people are freaked out by terrorist attacks and shark attacks because they seem random and uncontrollable, whereas people (largely incorrectly) think that they have control over whether they are involved in a car accident or in a gun incident or other crime. Certain things loom larger in people's minds, rightly or wrongly, and terrorism is one of those things - which, of course, is why it can be a successful strategy for terrorists. 


I've said essentially this so many times i'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself. Unrealistic risk assessment is just one the of many ways people find to make themselves miserable and thats all well and good.They are certainly free to do that but when they start to take political and social stances based on these fears it starts to become particularly onerous . The whole Trump thing is a prime example 

post #2210 of 2656
I certainly have a more psychologically ingrained fear of sharks when I go surfing than I do of the more statistically likely risk that I'll get in a car accident driving to the beach half asleep with my board wedged into the car in a fashion that blocks half my vision and impedes my freedom of arm movement. Fuck you Steven Spielberg and Peter Benchley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

Yet the article doesn't compare all the freedom we've given up for causes that harm even fewer people than Islamic terrorism. This is a silly example, but think of all the shit we do now because of the lack of tort reform. We all accept it as normal now that every truck in America has to have a screeching backup alarm. That every product has to come with the stupidest warning labels imaginable. That a simple fender bender costs $3,000 in repairs because of stupid regulations about crashworthiness. All in a vain attempt to thwart natural selection. prevent lawsuits.
I admit I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the history of automobile manufacuring regulations, but isn't the point of crashworthiness regulations to reduce the risk of injury and death rather than prevent lawsuits? And I could well be mistaken, but it was my vague, only slightly informed understanding that the risk of injury or death in accidents is in fact substantially lower in today's cars with their crumple zones and annoying tendency to sustain relatively expensive damage to their plasticky parts in mild or moderate collisions? If so, that protects not just Darwin Award worthy crappy drivers but also normal drivers they might rear end or t-bone in an intersection.
Edited by lawyerdad - 3/24/16 at 9:48pm
post #2211 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

I certainly have a more psychologically ingrained fear of sharks when I go surfing than I do of the more statistically likely risk that I'll get in a car accident driving to the beach half asleep with my board wedged into the car in a fashion that blocks half my vision and impedes my freedom of arm movement. Fuck you Steven Spielberg and Peter Benchley.
 

I read an account of a Great White attack that creeped me out for years. The narrator was was spearfishing tuna off Catalina in deep water . Something caught his eye and as he was trying to focus he realized it was a Great White rising from the depths mouth open towards him . He managed to turn his gun in time to get off a glancing shot just before the shark hit him . People in the boat he was from said he flew 8 feet into the air. They found him floating unconscious but otherwise unharmed. He recounted how for a long time he could not stare into the deep depths without seeing that shark coming up at him. Being a spear fisherman myself I've often found myself thinking about that that improbable but scary as hell scenario

post #2212 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post


I think that you should think more about what "risk" means. 

Yes, the Sept 11 2001 attacks killed quite a few people, but that was a one-off occurrence. 

People worrying about terrorist attacks are like people worrying about being eaten by a shark when swimming in the sea - they've got a much, much, much greater chance of being killed in a car accident driving to and from the beach than they do being attacked by a shark while they're actually at the beach, but they don't think about the risk of car accident. 

People tend to have curious blind-spots about lots of things and I think that people are freaked out by terrorist attacks and shark attacks because they seem random and uncontrollable, whereas people (largely incorrectly) think that they have control over whether they are involved in a car accident or in a gun incident or other crime. Certain things loom larger in people's minds, rightly or wrongly, and terrorism is one of those things - which, of course, is why it can be a successful strategy for terrorists. 

I think you should re-read my post. I never said the risk for any individual to die in terrorist attack is high. And on daily basis I'm mostly find myself thinking I will die n car accident if the driver is driving too fast not bombed by muslim. Most of my post was about how they make our societies more shit besides terrorism- which is a bigger issue. It would be really great if you anwsered what was gist of my post not strawman me on the first sentence, thanks.
post #2213 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post

Putting reversing beepers on trucks is a very different matter from the PATRIOT Act, from draconian and ever-enlarging surveillance, from keeping people without charging or trying them for years on end. 

I made this point earlier in the thread, but it's worth noting again. Our immigration policy is the only reason we have to choose between privacy and security. But let's keep pretending like that isn't true. It's getting people killed, but we aren't offending the people who want to kill us, because that would be the real tragedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post

I don't want to be blown up by a fanatic, but it's important to keep some perspective here. The actual risk of someone in a western country being killed in a terrorist attack is vanishingly, vanishingly small. In the US, you've got a far, far, far greater chance of being killed by some western whacko with a gun and yet no-one is willing to tackle gun control,

Remove gang violence from the stats and get back to me on that one. But nonetheless, the left's solution to both problems is always the cute, button-nose bullshit that won't work. Pretend like terrorism and colonization isn't a growing problem. Pretend that immigration has nothing to do with it. Pretend that criminals obey stricter gun laws. Pretend that gun violence is a universal problem across all communities.
post #2214 of 2656
Comparing a car accident to a terrorist attack just in terms of relative risk misses some important distinctions between the two. For instance, car accidents are almost always random events where the participants did not mean to get into an accident whereas terrorist attacks are carefully planned events with an undeniable desire to cause harm and death. Car accidents might close down a street for a while whereas a terrorist attack can disrupt air travel across nations, demolish buildings, temporarily cripple cities, etc. Car accidents do not make the populace think there are dangerous crazy people inimical to their way of life in their midst.

To think that the number of deaths is the sum total of the impact of a terrorist attack is silly and lame. To ignore the other aspects shows a willingness to discount the terrorists. While handing over a bunch of freedoms to "fight terror" is also a mal-adaptive response so is pretending the terrorist attacks of the last 15 years do not deserve a response and that folks should basically ignore them.
post #2215 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

take a deep breath , it's gonna be ok ...

As long as not more especially european muslim aren't take a more active and public stance against salafism and hate preachers, it's only going to go one way and it's not forward.


hizb ut tahrir can without any issues gather 2k people to a meeting, in a building rented by the city and only a few demonstrators show up, if neo nazis did the same thing, you can be damn sure the entire city would be in riot mode.
post #2216 of 2656
http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/the-pernicious-myth-of-the-oppressed-european-muslim/

Here we go, the root of multi-culti has been discovered it is Christian dogma:
post #2217 of 2656
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

I read an account of a Great White attack that creeped me out for years. The narrator was was spearfishing tuna off Catalina in deep water . Something caught his eye and as he was trying to focus he realized it was a Great White rising from the depths mouth open towards him . He managed to turn his gun in time to get off a glancing shot just before the shark hit him . People in the boat he was from said he flew 8 feet into the air. They found him floating unconscious but otherwise unharmed. He recounted how for a long time he could not stare into the deep depths without seeing that shark coming up at him. Being a spear fisherman myself I've often found myself thinking about that that improbable but scary as hell scenario

Not all Great Whites are man-eaters.
post #2218 of 2656
Quote:
Remove gang violence from the stats and get back to me on that one.

Apparently only 50 Americans have been killed by Islamist inspired violence since 9/11. Compare that with something like 260 in mass shootings just last year (the real ones, not gangland stuff). And even the threat of mass shootings is wildly overplayed compared to your odds of getting randomly murdered on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

I made this point earlier in the thread, but it's worth noting again. Our immigration policy is the only reason we have to choose between privacy and security. But let's keep pretending like that isn't true. It's getting people killed, but we aren't offending the people who want to kill us, because that would be the real tragedy.

It's not just a switch you can throw without other effects.

There are going to be costs to shutting off all immigration from Muslims. AQ and ISIS are explicitly hoping to push the West (especially the US) to overcorrect and antagonize Muslims. Increasing pressures to radicalize at home is how they want to hurt us at home. It will almost certainly isolate the existing Muslim community, encourage them to stop helping stop helping law enforcement, and push more disaffected Muslims and/or converts into radicalization.

Maybe that cost is necessary. But we have to talk about it before closing the gates. We're not Europe, and the dynamics are very different here. It would be stupid to jump to policy solutions that are predicated around assuming the US is going to become Brussels any day now. We're not facing an imminent crisis, we're not being flooded with Muslims, and the Muslims that are here are not especially radicalized.
post #2219 of 2656
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

I don't see any benefit in having them in my country compared to say ukrainians.

Much better food. ME 1 : Ukraine 0
Much better sluts. ME 0 : Ukraine 1

I'd have little bit of both, am so multi culti....shog[1].gif
post #2220 of 2656
To quote the great Nick Harkaway:

And don't tell me the end justifies the means because it doesn't. We never reach the end. All we ever get is means. That's what we live with.
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