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Take all of the guns. All of them. - Page 89

post #1321 of 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post


You are fighting the hypothetical and that is a bullshit answer.

This is rather rich coming from you.
post #1322 of 1722
When I was young crackhead, I would routinely break into people's homes, and got guns pulled on me a couple of times. I ran like a motherfucker when I was confronted, but was never shot at. Not sure about a 13, or 14 year old being blasted for looking to steal some jewelry. Some people do change their bad habits.
post #1323 of 1722
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


This is rather rich coming from you.


Whatever, brotato. 

 

I also want to point out to Kai that good parenting sometimes isn't enough to keep a kid from doing stupid shit. I know plenty of privileged middle class white kids with good parents and normal siblings who ended up dead, in jail, or in rehab. 

post #1324 of 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre Secreto View Post

When I was young crackhead, I would routinely break into people's homes, and got guns pulled on me a couple of times. I ran like a motherfucker when I was confronted, but was never shot at. Not sure about a 13, or 14 year old being blasted for looking to steal some jewelry. Some people do change their bad habits.


"bad habits"?

 

serial burglary is a "habit". oh, ok! 

 

not gonna get into how people should defend themselves, but i really don't get the apologists here who have essentially taken up the argument the victim is responsible for the criminals actions. 

 

or maybe ethan would simply feel better if the burglar had been stabbed or beaten to death?

post #1325 of 1722
Where did I say burglary was a bad habit? Pretty sure I mentioned drug habit, and I ain't too sure how kleptomania has a roll in this.
post #1326 of 1722
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre Secreto View Post

When I was young crackhead, I would routinely break into people's homes, and got guns pulled on me a couple of times. I ran like a motherfucker when I was confronted, but was never shot at. Not sure about a 13, or 14 year old being blasted for looking to steal some jewelry. Some people do change their bad habits.

i read this as referring to b&e, not drugs.

 

my point about victims of crime bearing the burden of "defense etiquette" stands however.


Edited by double00 - 3/17/16 at 11:58am
post #1327 of 1722
I think the problem some folks are having with this tragedy is that they cannot disambiguate their feelings vs. rational thought. I feel this woman made a host of bad judgement calls, but rationally, I'm not sure she did anything illegal or immoral. Her home had been broken into multiple times before, apparently there was some kind of confrontation between her and the person engaged in burglarizing her home, so I'm not ready to make some of the pronouncements here such as she murdered a child. So while I disagree with her actions, and it's unlikely I would put myself in that situation if my home were being burgled, I'm more than willing to let the system churn and determine her guilt or innocence of a crime.

Based on the comments by the dead man's relatives it does sound like he was entitled. I say this as members of his family have made it quite clear this is a valid means to obtain funds. I see the advantage in dissuading people that invading a person's home and stealing their property is a rational means to material acquisition. It's a shame the criminal justice system does not provide the needed impetus to modify this behavior.
post #1328 of 1722
Wait...so this woman rushed home to shoot the guy as he was on the way out?

If you feared for your safety, why would you go to the place where the burglar is? When instead, you could wait for the police to clear the area since it sounds like they arrived moments later...
This isn't a straight up castle doctrine situation where some guy came into her house while she was home and she needed protection.

I don't know what sort of confrontation they had...maybe she didn't have the gun out and he attacked her, she drew and shot him...I suppose that is legit, but it is a huge lapse in judgement on her part.

Sounds like it may even be legal in florida to shoot someone stealing your stuff even if they don't attack you...but I don't really agree that that is right. She absolutely failed to avoid a fatal situation...she had a fricking alarm system that told her it might be dangerous and she rushed in with a gun instead of staying in safety. Getting robbed sucks...but running home with a gun instead of waiting for police is some vigilante ass shit.
post #1329 of 1722
I think we should let all the facts come out first.

If what otc described is true, I know that I wouldn't have done what she did. I have no desire to have to shoot someone. I also have insurance, and it is unlikely people are going to steal or damage something that can't be replaced. With that being said, if someone broke into my house while I was home, I likely would use deadly force.
post #1330 of 1722
Otc, I don't disagree with anything you said, as I've said it myself already, but I'm still not ready to declare this woman guilty of "murder" as some are. For instance, she did notify the police. I have questions about this though, such as what's the response time? How often is the area patrolled? The fact she's had so much problem with burglary that she spent the time and money to install a system capable of remote notification tells me that somehow civil society has let her down which puts a certain light on her actions.

We also don't have much in the way of actual police investigation yet but rather the comments of the dead man's family, comments that include this was basically within his rights to do.
post #1331 of 1722
Vigilantism is meting out extrajudicial punishment. Shooting someone who's broken into your house isn't punishing them. It's stopping them from continuing to commit a crime.

I can't claim to have done a 50-state survey, but certainly in my state and others I'm familiar with, deadly force is specifically authorized to stop a burglary in progress.
post #1332 of 1722
I've already posted the link to the Florida statute on this. NAL but a quick read seems to indicate she's covered. He was certainly in the act of a burglary.
post #1333 of 1722
Fuck, man. This is bringing up a bunch of trippy childhood memories...

post #1334 of 1722
Quote:
776.013 Home protection; use or threatened use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using or threatening to use defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used or threatened was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses or threatens to use defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

She seems pretty much in the clear to my layman's reading of this.
post #1335 of 1722
If that's the whole statute, it's actually a fairly weak one. It just creates a presumption that deadly force was threatened against the woman by the burglar, one that could presumably be rebutted (such as, if, say, the woman told the story to the cops and described the burglar as non-threatening somehow).

In my state you can use deadly force to stop the burglary, period.
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