Review of Formosa Suit from NMWA

gdl203 said:

There's another thread for this strange situation again?

Let me clarify a few points - many of which are common sense for most, several of which are written clearly in our terms & conditions (and are as standard as T&C) get :

1. Just in case anyone is unclear about this, the suit in question was not an MTM, custom, MTO or even a pre-order. It was simply off the rack and Noodles placed an order for it.
2. There is no guarantee of fit with OTR garments! People buy and then need to try them on - then they can determine whether it fits or not.
3. We spend A LOT of time taking measurements of garments. We do this to help people figure out their size. Measurements are NOT contractual, of course. They're indicative and there to help narrow down your size. After that, whether a garment fits or not has nothing to do with precise measurements but everything to do with how it fits, looks, feels. We do not sell garments with an accurate measurement warranty! Anyone who has measured two jackets of the same size in the past would know it would be absurd and strictly impossible.
4. It is very possible that the suit has different measurements than the other 50R that we measured for the sizing grid - I wouldn't know exactly how different because the suit is not in our possession so I cannot measure it. Whatever those measurements actually are, they are rather meaningless numbers compared to the real life experience of trying it on.
5. The onus in on the customer to determine if an item fits. If I was present, I could look at the fit and give my opinion, but when the customer is hundreds of miles away, he needs to put it on and decide if he likes the fit. Isn't this basic common sense?
6. Our return policy is clear and reasonable. Some would call it generous. We often go beyond our return policy and accept exchanges and sometimes returns for final sale items. In a word, we work with our customers, we want them to be happy (of very recent memory I can think of several SFers for which we worked to fix issues, e.g. @venividivicibj , @ScottMC , @in stitches ...). But our return policy is very clear that we cannot take returns if the item is altered, worn, used.
7. Noodles took receipt of the suit, tried it on, decided he was keeping it and had it altered. Then he wore multiple times, including posting fits in the last couple of weeks in it. We just cannot take this suit back now that he feels that the fit isn't optimal. Whether it looks good on him (many here think that it does) or not is not relevant to the fact that we cannot take back a worn, altered suit because he changed his mind about keeping it.
8. I would have absolutely taken the suit back and either exchanged it or refunded Noodles if it was in sellable condition. Not a problem at all - Noodles himself took advantage of our return policy several times, I believe. Including (ironically?) when he first purchased a Formosa suit that was too small for him (48R) and returned it after trying it on.
9. Noodles posted a litany of remarks about this suit in the "good natured advice" thread, expressing and implying that he was cheated, misled, even several times using the word "defective". Let's be clear : there is nothing defective about the suit at all - he may not love how it fits him (in which case he should not have tailored it and worn it), it may fit smaller than tagged, but it has no defects.
10. I pro-actively reached to Noodles because I felt bad for him making the mistake of altering a suit he wasn't happy with. I offered him to go to his local tailor and have him look at it and that NoMan would pay for the alterations that will make him happy. I thought that was a good (maybe my only possible) resolution to this. He thought so too. He thanked me and went to his tailor. According to Noodles, the tailor said the suit was fine.
11. Then Noodles wore it for a couple more weeks, and then PM'd me demanding that I take the jacket back and exchange it for a new one. He mentioned that he would pursue "legal remedies" if I did not comply with his demands. I was (still am) shocked by this behavior. This blackmail public bullying does not sit well with me.

I'm still willing to find some form of resolution here but NoMan acted appropriately and in line with our posted policies at all times. Anything I would do from here on is in good faith and beyond our policies and terms & conditions. I hate having unhappy customers but I also need to be professional and fair about how we run this business, and how we treat all customers equally and in line with our policies.

Click to expand...

I believe I wanted to have a chat with you over the phone to settle this.

Perhaps NMWA should put a disclaimer on its site stating that Formosa suits are made in small batches in Italy by a bespoke shop, and therefore have a greater variance in sizing than can be expected form regular RTW? An informed customer will be able to look out for this variance, which will prevent further issues.

Caveat emptor only works when the buyer has been reasonably informed regarding the risks of his purchase. Greg, with his financial background, should know all about this. I believe he should also know all about not discussing a clients financial details with third parties. You can say all you want about Noodles, but Greg (and NMWA) has crossed a certain important ethical and moral line as well.

The Noodles said:

I believe I wanted to have a chat with you over the phone to settle this.

Click to expand...

That's what I also thought, but then you posted this thread here and on other internet forums, along with half a dozen posts in it continuing your narrative.

Did you expect me not to inform the readers of this thread of the actual facts of the situation, when you started the thread? I'm confused about how your mind works

Monkeyface said:

Perhaps NMWA should put a disclaimer on his site stating that Formosa suits are made in small batches Italy by a bespoke shop, and therefore have a greater variance in sizing than can be expected form regular RTW? An informed customer will be able to look out for this variance, which will prevent further issues.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is an excellent idea, even if our Terms & Conditions already covers that. The problem is that measurements vary for everything in the tailored world, not just small batch makers. We have larger players like Inis Meain or Vass that often have measurement discrepancies between two units of the same size. Even ties from big brands are not always accurately 8 or 8.5 cm width as advertised. Every maker (big factories and smaller ones) have manufacturing tolerance ranges. Measurements cannot never be fully accurate.

No, this thread was created before I sent you the email. Then it was deleted by an admin. Then someone allowed this thread. I have simply stated facts above.

It's nice to dodge your customer when he wants to resolve this issue.
I called and Kyle said that you were on an appointment. I guess an appointment with SF is just so much more important than a real customer.

Ugh, Inis sizing. That struggle is real.

gdl203 said:

That's what I also thought, but then you posted this thread here and on other internet forums, along with half a dozen posts in it continuing your narrative.

Did you expect me not to inform the readers of this thread of the actual facts of the situation, when you started the thread? I'm confused about how your mind works


Yes, this is an excellent idea, even if our Terms & Conditions already covers that. The problem is that measurements vary for everything in the tailored world, not just small batch makers. We have larger players like Inis Meain or Vass that often have measurement discrepancies between two units of the same size. Even ties from big brands are not always accurately 8 or 8.5 cm width as advertised. Every maker (big factories and smaller ones) have manufacturing tolerance ranges. Measurements cannot never be fully accurate.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call Vass or Inis Meain large players, but I get your point.

Anyways, seeing as you advertise on SF and have a large following, it means any newbie asking for recommendations will be pointed in your direction (which is what happened to Noodles). You can't reasonably expect someone who doesn't know much about classic menswear to know about sizing variances in hand made clothing. You often send out educational ad copy, so it might be a good idea to send one out regarding sizing variance, and put in bold in the order confirmation email a recommendation that the customer try on the garment before cutting off the tags/altering it, due to sizing variances. It's good for business to inform your customers (esp in the long run), and you're covering your own ass. Win-win.

Monkeyface said:

Anyways, seeing as you advertise on SF and have a large following, it means any newbie asking for recommendations will be pointed in your direction (which is what happened to Noodles). You can't reasonably expect someone who doesn't know much about classic menswear to know about sizing variances in hand made clothing. You often send out educational ad copy, so it might be a good idea to send one out regarding sizing variance, and put in bold in the order confirmation email the recommendation that the customer try on the garment before cutting off the tags/altering it, due to sizing variances. It's good for business to inform your customers (esp in the long run), and you're covering your own ass. Win-win.

Click to expand...

This is good advice

Well, this is how it should end.

I spent 10 minutes trying to find a picture of Noodles wearing this suit. Can anyone provide me a link to the post of Noodles wearing the suit?

The Noodles said:

It's nice to dodge your customer when he wants to resolve this issue.
I called and Kyle said that you were on an appointment. I guess an appointment with SF is just so much more important than a real customer.

Click to expand...

Always with the accusations... I was indeed with a customer here, I got your message and called you back 15 mins later.

How childish is this?

What happened to the days when 2 men had a disagreement...and handled it like MEN? I remember when people spoke face to face, picked up the phone or sent e-mails or PM's.
Disagreements don't get resolved overnight. So it may take a while. Ok.

Why is there a need to start a thread/air out all of this personal **** online? Have people really forgot how to communicate like adults? Is it one party or the other looking for the "majority" to back them to push their case fwd?

Damm.....this is not that difficult.

TKD vs Beard Fu

I'd watch it.

I think I will wait for the @voxsartoria Twitter summary

Well, not putting my head in this fight, but NMWA has gone above and beyond for me personally. Thats all I'll say.

I recently purchased something from a SF Aff that was not the stated size. I was a dummy and had already removed the tag, but I sent a message right away, offered to take a photograph of the item w/ measurement to confirm, and basically said "This is my fault for not trying it on sooner. You don't have any obligation in this. But if you could take this back and offer me store credit on my next purchase I'd really appreciate it. If not, it's fine I can sell it here." The owner was very reasonable, told me to send it back and said my account would be credited. I didn't want to ask for a refund because I knew how unreasonable of a request it already was and wanted to reassure the owner I intended to continue purchasing from their shop. Things worked out. Even if he said no, I'd keep buying. I screwed up. And it was all done via PM.

Now my item was considerably cheaper than a Formosa suit or EG MTOs, but it was pretty obvious to me that even though there may have been a factory error, I could have tried the thing on sooner, I could have left the tag on, etc and therefore I knew I was making quite an ask. Had I altered it, had I worn it out even once, had I washed it, there is no way I would be sending a message. It's my responsibility to try on my purchases and communicate with the store ASAP. They're clothes, you look in the damn mirror don't you? It shouldn't be hard to notice right away and get it sorted out. Just blows my mind that somebody can be so dense about this.