Ebay Ethical Question

i just find it odd that, although we are discussing ethical questions of who was right or wrong, who should pay, who should cover; there's no real consensus, there's no agreement at all about what is the right thing to do. It all comes down to a single cent?

so if the shoes were $249.99, grimslade is screwed, if they were $250.00, the buyer is screwed. no middle ground.

1 cent...

To all: the amount was slightly over 251 before shipping. Just FYI; there's no ambiguity here.

To A Harris: I don't know if it's more my fault. As I mentioned, I spent this morning pounding on doors in the building. If I had a signature, I would know who to blame. I might even get the package back. Because I don't, I have nowhere left to turn. That's not to say it's his fault totally either.

Anyway, I think we've run through the range of opinions here. I'm grateful to everyone for weighing in thoughtfully. I'd be happy to split the difference, even though I know that wouldn't satisfy everyone who's posted. I wonder how many, even among the regular sellers, would "write it off" in my position. I'll post back when I've learned my fate at the hands of Paypal.

EDIT: I'll just add that, while I understand his skepticism to a point, it's profoundly unhelpful for the seller to call me a crook, accuse me of defrauding him and saying that I'm stealing. It does not fill me with warm feelings of compassion for his predicament.

Originally Posted by A Harris

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Yes, this is true. I had a detailed discussion with paypal about this very topic. At $249.99 delivery confirmation is sufficient. $250.00 plus requires a signature, or the seller loses, period.

Scenario - Say I neglected to add the signature confirmation to a $250+ package. I had delivery confirmation showing it was delivered. I then lose the paypal claim. I would be extremely upset, I would assume I had been defrauded and would block that buyer and leave a negative. But I would still have to accept that I screwed up by not using signature confirmation.

This is a very interesting distinction Paypal draws. I would like to thank grimslade for starting this thread and you for having spoken to Paypal about this previously and now passing on this knowledge.

I will change my postage accordingly - up to now I have used Royal Mail Airsure for international deliveries. It's a day quicker than normal Airmail and have online tracking all the way to destination but has only barcode confirmation. I'll now use Royal Mail International Signed For which is only as fast as normal Airmail, has online tracking within the UK only (and a few selected destination countries; not sure if USA is included in that) but crucially has a signature on delivery.

It's actually a pound cheaper than Airsure, so I don't mind using it at all, but it's a worse service to the buyer because it's slightly slower and may not online track all the way to the destination. But with Paypal's policy, I have no other sensible choice. I find that quite sad, actually.

Grimslade, once again, I certainly empathize with your situation.

I do want to dispute one thing that a lot of people are discussing here - the "requirement" that the seller ship via signature-required delivery. As I read it (and I'm no lawyer, so I certainly could be wrong), this business of requiring a signature applies specifically to whether or not Paypal's seller protection policy is triggered. It is not a requirement of the sale, rather it is a requirement of Paypal's "insurance policy." It essentially is a contract between the seller and Paypal... and not any part of the contract between the buyer and the seller.

In other words:

Whether the merchant has satisfied his "seller protection" insurance requirements with Paypal?

and

Whether the merchant has satisfied his obligations to you vis-a-vis the sale?

are two very different questions. I think you've gotten convinced by some of the folks who've weighed in that the seller somehow did something wrong by you in not requiring a signature, when in fact they've actually done something wrong by the insurance policy they could have had against fraud.

Ultimately, as a few folks have mentioned, this is a weakness of buying via eBay. I am no eBay merchant... I've never sold anything online. That said, I am a business person, and I am in the business of selling manufactured goods in B2B transactions around the globe. Business sales contracts have very clearly-spelled-out terms and conditions. Who pays for transport? Who pays for insurance during transport? At what point does the title technically change from seller to buyer? Terms like FOB, Ex-Works, CIF, CNF, etc. all exist to prevent these types of disputes.

When selling online, these terms and conditions between buyer and seller are extremely vague, and most sellers are not flexible or willing to change any terms or conditions. In certain cases, I have even offered to provide UPS or FedEx acct. numbers to sellers in lieu of paying their freight rate, and have been rebuffed, and out of sheer laziness and aversion to change, imho. In general, most eBay buyers and sellers don't even consider the possibilities, don't know how to protect themselves from problems, and frankly don't even care to think about it.

Whatever ends up happening... good luck to you. I hope a solution that works for everyone comes about.

grimslade, not that this would encourage you or help you in anyway...


but last year i had learned a tough lesson about providing tracking.
i shipped a pair of santoni monks which costed me 200 dollars without del confirmation (first month of ebay selling, i was a noob)

and the guy maliciously charged back with c.c. company that he never received the package. ( i know maliciously, because two other sellers discussed this with me about his doings with them as well; his account has been thus unregistered)

I was out my 200 dollars (not including the small profit on top of that) after paypal took my money and on top of that to kick me while i was down,
they charged me 10 more dollars for the chargeback.
what the hell was thaT?


anways, just thought you like to hear.

i know misery loves company...but hopefully yours dont end up misery , get those shoes eventually hopefully.

Originally Posted by Holdfast

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This is a very interesting distinction Paypal draws. I would like to thank grimslade for starting this thread and you(A Harris) for having spoken to Paypal about this previously and now passing on this knowledge.

+1.

Originally Posted by grimslade

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I'd be happy to split the difference, even though I know that wouldn't satisfy everyone who's posted. I wonder how many, even among the regular sellers, would "write it off" in my position. I'll post back when I've learned my fate at the hands of Paypal.
All things considered, your offer is more fair than what 95% of the population would propose in the same situation; you definitely deserve some respect for that.

The latter question is a good one too. It depends; I just feel bad for the seller, the poor chap doesn't know what hit him. Then again, he's probably more able to absorb such losses and "write it off" in his own position. You learn something new everyday, I suppose.

After four pages of posts, you are compelled to tell us what shoes you bought for $251 or provide a link to the auction.

Originally Posted by grimslade

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To all: the amount was slightly over 251 before shipping. Just FYI; there's no ambiguity here.

To A Harris: I don't know if it's more my fault. As I mentioned, I spent this morning pounding on doors in the building. If I had a signature, I would know who to blame. I might even get the package back. Because I don't, I have nowhere left to turn. That's not to say it's his fault totally either.

Anyway, I think we've run through the range of opinions here. I'm grateful to everyone for weighing in thoughtfully. I'd be happy to split the difference, even though I know that wouldn't satisfy everyone who's posted. I wonder how many, even among the regular sellers, would "write it off" in my position. I'll post back when I've learned my fate at the hands of Paypal.

EDIT: I'll just add that, while I understand his skepticism to a point, it's profoundly unhelpful for the seller to call me a crook, accuse me of defrauding him and saying that I'm stealing. It does not fill me with warm feelings of compassion for his predicament.

To be clear, I'm not saying this is your fault, or his fault. It is the clearly the fault of either the courier, someone at your office, or someone who stole the package.

As far as the seller goes, I can understand that you are upset to be accused by him of trying to cheat him. I am just offering that really there is no other way he can view it... How would you view it if you were him?

Originally Posted by whacked

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All things considered, your offer is more fair than what 95% of the population would propose in the same situation; you definitely deserve some respect for that.

I certainly agree; Grimslade is certainly a standup fella and the very fact that he's got apprehension about what he's doing says a lot about his ethics.

Originally Posted by whacked

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Then again, he's probably more able to absorb such losses and "write it off" in his own position.

However, as someone who is in business myself, I'm consistently amazed at this attitude. Why should a business be "more able" to absorb a loss than an individual? Most businesses, small businesses, are owned by individuals and are entitled to the same amount of deference as any individual. Particularly in the case of a very small business, which this eBay business likely is, why should the seller be in some kind of position to just shrug off $250 any more than Grimslade?

The "reimburse seller's cost" solution sounds sort of fair at first, but consider the seller's point of view. They assumed risk in purchasing inventory that might or might not have sold, or might not have been worth what they thought it was. They made an investment, assumed risk, held inventory, spent time on a sales effort, and had overhead costs (e.g. maintaining a place to hold this inventory). Sure, for a tiny home business these overhead costs might be close to zero, but they do exist. There's also the opportunity cost lost when that cash was invested in one item vs. another.

Why does the seller assume this risk? In hopes of a return. In hopes of profit. And if they upheld the terms and conditions of the sale, why are they suddenly not entitled to that profit? Businesses can't exist if they're just being reimbursed for their costs. Otherwise, there's no point in their existence. Money is better secure in a mattress than risked for no gain.

Obviously, since the Ts & Cs of this sale were probably pretty vague (when did the goods officially change hands?), it's not quite so cut and dried. But the general opinion that businesses can somehow afford to get the short end of the stick in a transaction often drives me

He doesn't know you from Adam. If I sold you something, based on your rep here, I wouldn't question it if you said you never got it. Someone in your building is walking around in your shoes that mofo.

Originally Posted by Holdfast

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This is a very interesting distinction Paypal draws. I would like to thank grimslade for starting this thread and you for having spoken to Paypal about this previously and now passing on this knowledge.

I will change my postage accordingly - up to now I have used Royal Mail Airsure for international deliveries. It's a day quicker than normal Airmail and have online tracking all the way to destination but has only barcode confirmation. I'll now use Royal Mail International Signed For which is only as fast as normal Airmail, has online tracking within the UK only (and a few selected destination countries; not sure if USA is included in that) but crucially has a signature on delivery.

It's actually a pound cheaper than Airsure, so I don't mind using it at all, but it's a worse service to the buyer because it's slightly slower and may not online track all the way to the destination. But with Paypal's policy, I have no other sensible choice. I find that quite sad, actually.

This thread has raised additional questions for me. Here is the relevant section of the paypal user agreement:

You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an approved shipper to the address on the "Transaction Details" page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online, (If you paid in a currency other than US dollars, the following amounts apply for this section: $325.00 CAD, €200.00 EUR, £150.00 GBP, ¥28000.00 JPY, $350.00 AUD, 330.00 CHF, 1,600.00 NOK, 2,000.00 SEK, 1,500.00 DKK, 800.00 PLN, 55000.00 HUF, 6,000.00 CZK, $400.00 SGD, $2,000.00 HKD, $380.00 NZD)

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This leaves two questions unanswered. Is the $250 inclusive of or exclusive of shipping? I assumed exclusive of, but it really doesn't say. Also, what exactly does "proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online" really mean? I was told it means signature confirmation. But what if the item is signed for by someone other than the buyer his/herself? Like an agent. It's not very clear. Sounds like I need to make another phone call.

Originally Posted by EL72

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After four pages of posts, you are compelled to tell us what shoes you bought for $251 or provide a link to the auction.

I would, but actually, I'd rather not get involved in posting the details online in the middle of things. Maybe once it's over, one way or another.

Originally Posted by A Harris

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As far as the seller goes, I can understand that you are upset to be accused by him of trying to cheat him. I am just offering that really there is no other way he can view it... How would you view it if you were him?

Originally Posted by HomerJ

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He doesn't know you from Adam. If I sold you something, based on your rep here, I wouldn't question it if you said you never got it.

Someone in your building is walking around in your shoes that mofo.

I know what you're saying, guys. I would be suspicious too. It's a weird thing about ebay, the way it puts everyone on their guard. I've tried to provide him with enough context, information about my efforts to locate the shoes, etc., to make him question whether I'm just a scammer. But obviously there's only so far that can go in a situation like this.

And Homer, I really hope you're wrong. But I've been looking down a lot the last few days.

OK, the die is cast and it's in paypal's hands. I'm going to try once again to let this thing settle out before I update this thread.

Lousy situation for sure, here's to hoping it works out!!

You said it. I'd much rather have the shoes than my money back, honestly.

You would lose a Paypal dispute, because tracking number says it's delivered. Same thing happened to me, and as far as Ebay/Paypal was concerned, it was delivered. I was pissed, but guess what - 6 months later (I kid you not) the package with my shoes turned up. It must have been in the back of a truck or some closet in the post office all that time. Who knows. Postmark was 6 months previous.