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post #31 of 68
Tom, I couldn't agree with you more. drizzl, I am very intersted in knowing where you live, I have been burgeled, but never when home, and I don't believe that they were armed. you sound like you live in a pretty dangerous place. statistically speaking, it is also more likely that somebody in your house will drop dead of a heart attack - do any of you gunslingers have an automatic defibrilator in the house? they are about the same price as a good firearm? and another question please - this is the scenario that I see, its 3 am, somebody breaks into your house. the only thing that we know about him for sure is that he works at night and so is pretty alert and he is listening up to see what is going to happen in the house. he is probrably pumped with adrenaline. you wake up, or your spouse nudges you, you spend 30 seconds discussing if it was a sound or not. you go to your gun safe, work the combination, load your firearm (and possibly, if you have a collection, spend another minute deciding which to use) then go looking for the intruder. he has had 2 minutes to know that you are coming. do you really think that you are going to outshoot him? if you really really must have a gun in your house, say your wives ex-boyfriend just got out of jail and wants to kill you and moving hasn't helped, then at least go to one of those wekend courses that teaches combat gunning, going to a range twice a year and shooting at paper will not help you in the least in a gunfight. oh, and get rid of those cannon, a .45 is not a good option for anybody. get a 9 or 10mm, or better yet a 20 guage shotgun, get a very very good combination safe and never tell the combination to anybody or open it with anybody in the room, and get glasser amo or the smallest birdshot available, do yourselves that favor at least. but if you want to be really safe, spend your money on a difibrilator and some tear gas.
post #32 of 68
My .40 caliber Kahr pistol is like my American Express card: I don't leave home without it (except when I travel on airplanes.) Perhaps we should start some new threads on the fashion forum: "How does the well dressed man conceal a handgun?" "Are shell cordovan holsters really better than bullhide holsters?" "Which ankle holster is least likely to interfere with the line and break of my trousers?" "What's the best way to carry spare magazines, if you don't want to fill your pockets with bulky objects?"
post #33 of 68
kai, just out of curiosity, I am not that familiar with american "gun culture" 1. where do you live? 2. how many rounds a year, about, do you fire for practice? 3. is your firearm part of your vocation? are you LEO?
post #34 of 68
we're talking about guns here, not defibrillators. nor are we talking about any other potentially life-threatening situation that can occur within someone's house. that stuff belongs in another, more general thread. there are more reasons to own a gun than immediate self-preservation. the deterrent factor is one big one that i can think of. i'd rather have criminals scared to commit crimes, than have them merely dodging the police. the best way that can happen, to my mind, is when they don't know who is capable of catching them and defending themselves. if guns are outlawed, a big means of self-protection is taken away from law-abiding citizens, and criminals who have access to guns know this. i don't intend on ever using my guns inside my house. (they are hunting firearms, not weapons.) i so sincerely hope it never comes to that. i don't even know that i could, given that they're locked up with two keyed locks and the ammo is not stored with them. yet i am not afraid to advertise the fact that i have guns - quite the contrary. it is to the benefit of the greater good, that the gun-carrying law-abiders are widespread enough to make criminals think twice. look, i'm not an idiot. i don't make stupid choices with respect to my guns. accidents can happen, i know. but i think you will find in the statistics, that the vast majority of those gun 'accidents' were caused by carelessness or ignorance. i am neither careless nor ignorant. there are very few instances of a gun just 'going off'. i think, Tom, that you are going to have to cite some credible references if you want me to believe that i am likely to shoot a loved one when defending my home. and what's more, Tom, regarding your point #4: the use of force for self-defense is morally and (used to be) legally appropriate. the concept that *criminals* believe in is the INITIATION of the use of force. if you can't see the distinction, i'm not going to try to explain it. i know better than to get into a debate with a fine citizen of the People's Republic of Berkeley. /andrew
post #35 of 68
kai, just out of curiosity, I am not that familiar with american "gun culture" 1. where do you live? 2. how many rounds a year, about, do you fire for practice? 3. is your firearm part of your vocation? are you LEO?
I live in Colorado I fire probably 500+ rounds a year for practice. No, a gun is not part of my vocation. I'm just paranoid
post #36 of 68
I live in Orange County, CA. I go to the gun range about once every 1-2 weeks or so and fire 1500-2000 rounds a year easily. I have also hunted since I was 8. I grew up in Wisconsin, around quite a few guns. I had my apartments broken into once while living in Madison, WI, once in Cambridge, MA, and once in my parents' cottage in northern Wisconsin. My USP is only one of my weapons, I also own two Ruger P89DC (which I like to carry together sometimes), the USP, a Glock 19, a Bushmaster Target 20 (with flash supressor, pre 94), a Ingram Mac-10 (pre 94), a H&K MP5 (purchased recently), and a Mossberg 590A1. Obviously I collect weapons and don't need ALL these weapons for home defense, but my Target 20, USP, and Mossberg are all within easy reach. I have no children and am not married and noone is usually at my house besides my gf and myself, and she knows better than to mess with loaded weapons. In terms of training, I've been through quite a few combat training courses including the one near Barstow, CA, and been to their "combat training" range with some of my friends (all ex military, one of my best friends was force recon) and while I haven't been in combat, I think I am a bit better trained (and well armed) than the average gun owner.
post #37 of 68
fb, sorry to bring up difibrillators, just it seems to me that if the justification for having a gun in the house is in the event that somebody breaks in and is intending to rape/kill/maim and is armed and is not scared off then you are looking at an event that is a whole hell of a lot less likely than a heart attack. if a person is claiming that he is arming himself to be prepared to save his families life in the event of such an accurance, however rare, then I would wonder if he is preparing for heart attacks, too. There are 2 entirely different issues here - if you say "well, I like playing with guns, and it is no more detremental to public health than all those guys riding motorcycles without helmets" that is a perfectly good argument. if you are saying "the best way that I can protect my family is to keep a gun in the house" you are probrably wrong, unless you live in an area with horrific crime and very poor police response. pardon me for saying this, I am simply using you as an example because you have provided some information - if your guns are locked up well, and you haven't really given much thought to how you may use them in the event of a home invasion, I really doubt that you will make a good show of it in a gunfight against somebody who is pumped full of adrenaline, wide awake and armed coming into your house. what gets people killed is when they try and improvise when something happens. and, no reflection on you are anybody else, I think that most people who get killed in gun accidents aren't idiots, they are simple average and a little sloppy and they aren't focused about wha they are doing. again, I have nothing against guns. I think that guns should be available. I wish that the govenment was more careful about regulating the training of gun owners, but that is another story. I don't think that having a gun in the house is the best way to serve your families safety (probrably a diffibrilator is, but I won't go into that again).
post #38 of 68
drzzl, thanks for the answer. I would agree that that is the type of commitment that makes for extremly safe and effective firearm use. I am not interested in that kind of commitment in my life, but I would feel very safe if I thought that all firearm owners trained that well. (ps, wow, I figured that you had been burgled in a single, very dangerous, place)
post #39 of 68
No, I have either had extraordinarily bad luck or the places I've lived are more dangerous than they are supposed to be. Where I currently live, I think the chances of a home invasion are somewhat lower than that of a heart attack, but then again if I had merely thought that lightning never strikes twice in the same place, I might not be here typing this message now.
post #40 of 68
Drizzt, You carry guns around, you apparently attract trouble (3 break ins?&#33 and you have chozen a screen name that relates you to a "misunderstood, drow elf hero". You are going to either get killed for no reason, or kill some poor sucker innapropriately. I used to teach a children's Tae Kwon Do class. One of the dads would come in a watch the class that his kid was in. One day the dad decided to lay on the floor during the class. His gun was pointing out of his ankle holster towards a room full of ten year old kids. I don't care if the safety was on and it was unloaded. To walk into a room full of kids with a gun strapped to your leg is simply a stupid thing to do. -Tom
post #41 of 68
The areas that I was living when I encountered break-ins could be considered relatively unsafe. As I live in a gated community now, I think it is somewhat more secure, however, it is always good to be careful in my opinion. Maybe the father in question was a police officer or other law enforcement agent who is required to carry, should cops be without weapons when with children? Where do you draw the line?
post #42 of 68
Orange County? Dude, that's one of the richest, whitest, places in america. Its just a big suburb of LA. It was used as a joke in the movie, Swingers. There's a scene where somebody brings a gun out for a minor altercation. Everybody's shocked, since there's no need to bring it out. And, the guy says something like "you don't understand, i needed it where I grew up." And, then they answer "dude, you grew up in anaheim (city in orange county)." The big joke is that Anaheim is not a dangerous city, where you need to have a gun. Oh sure, Orange County has dangerous pockets, but its not really that bad at all. Ask people who live in really dangerous neighborhoods. Also, I totally disagree with the idea that you need a gun to protect yourself. Are your items so precious for somebody to get killed over. There's a difference between being a burgular and a killer. Even if you don't have a gun, why would a burgular need to kill you. Its just too much risk for him. We're talking a diff of a few years in prision vs. life or death penalty. And, if he's not afraid of this potential for death penalty, then he probably wouldn't be afraid of your gun.
post #43 of 68
Orange County is not a dangerous place. Most of the places that I have lived are significantly more dangerous, but regardless, I will be armed regardless. I could care less whether he is afraid of my gun or not, that's not the reason for having one. In the unlikely case someone breaks into my place, he will leave in the custody of the law, or in an ambulance, the choice is completely in his hands.
post #44 of 68
I don't believe that you who carry guns do it for protection, and I don't believe that you do it for some ideal about "the right to bear arms". I think that you do it because somewhere along the line you became convinced that guns were "cool" and you were just insecure enough to believe it. -Tom
post #45 of 68
Did you read any of the previous posts? Perhaps after three break-ins you may be more receptive to guns for defensive purposes.
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