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Random fashion thoughts - Part II (A New Hope) - Page 664

post #9946 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by raginberriodoom View Post

@OccultaVexillum any more details you can share on those shorts? They look awesome.

Apparently won't be ready until next summer :/
Their brand is called lownn
post #9947 of 13955
@OccultaVexillum have you tried the lownn pants? they look really good, but i didn't kop because i thought they might be a little too heavy for spring/summer, also pricing is not far off marni/lemaire levels.

i can't help but find it amusing that those guys built up their social media presence via #menswear looks then one day discovered lemaire and retro sneakers. of course we all evolve/change, but the comical aspect is amplified when you're a #influencer
post #9948 of 13955

@robinsongreen68 No I don't own a pair myself, a friend has a navy pair though and he's the same size as me so I tried them on and just didn't like how wide the hem is (it's definitely wider than their size chart says). I'm 6'2" and he's 5'10" and they look really good on him, but they were off on me. If you like wider hems though they are pretty great but there are better options, like you said.

post #9949 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorcan7 View Post

To be fair the traditional Kyoto black dying technique is supposed to be special and give a deeper black. I think @Synthese
(in reference to Jun Hashimoto) has mentioned it here before, although the article links he posted seem to be dead.  Not to say we haven't reached a ridiculous level of overpriced upcycle stuff on the market at this point (and brands trying to exploit Japanese-ness for cool points, of course)  but I'd like to hope their results are better than a sachet of Rit at home. Maybe I'll swing by Present next time I'm in town to see for myself.

Fair enough, maybe the stuff is awesome in person.

Present could also just have really boring buys. The Swiss military jacket at LN-CC looks a lot cooler (although, also a lot more expensive)

http://www.ln-cc.com/en/men/clothing/jackets-1/blackyoto/men%E2%80%99s-kaito-swiss-field-jacket-in-black/blk0124005blk.html


post #9950 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


Fair enough, maybe the stuff is awesome in person.

Present could also just have really boring buys. The Swiss military jacket at LN-CC looks a lot cooler (although, also a lot more expensive)
 

 

I think they are playing very safe - truckers, military jackets, tees etc. the womenswear too with dyed culotte-esque peasant trousers.  There's less creative reimagining compared to something like Needles Rebuild or By Walid (but the pricing is heading into similar territory).

 

I too like the swiss parka, it makes me want to have another go at diy overdyeing a military jacket. The Vietnam-era BDU jacket I did a few years ago didn't quite come out as intended, although I have grown to like its shade of dark bluey-green.

post #9951 of 13955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

This has to be peak Japanese, goth, upcycling hype.

Company takes vintage pieces and sends them to Japan to be overdyed. From what I can tell, basically nothing you'd do different at home. Except an overdyed Levi's trucker jacket and Saint James shirt now costs $350 instead of ~$50 second-hand.

http://present-london.com/product/blackyoto-alpini-jacket/

http://present-london.com/product/blackyoto-ted-longsleeve/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/t-magazine/blackyoto-japanese-upcycling-vintage-clothing.html

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by troika View Post

modern-art-20101117-183533.jpg?resize=350%2C200

 

Except that I have.  I've painted leather jackets, DIYed special reinforcing stitching on jeans, painted and/or lacquered denim and sashiko jackets. etc...

 

fwiw, that Kyoto black or natural indigo garment dyeing and finishing as well as the shipping for these items are expensive, and should, if based on costs alone, add about $100-150 to the retail price, based on the sampling I've done.  This is without counting duties.  

 

So, is the retail still a bit nuts?  Probably, but probably not as crazy as you might think.

post #9952 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post



Except that I have.  I've painted leather jackets, DIYed special reinforcing stitching on jeans, painted and/or lacquered denim and sashiko jackets. etc...

fwiw, that Kyoto black or natural indigo garment dyeing and finishing as well as the shipping for these items are expensive, and should, if based on costs alone, add about $100-150 to the retail price, based on the sampling I've done.  This is without counting duties.  

So, is the retail still a bit nuts?  Probably, but probably not as crazy as you might think.

My point wasn't that there aren't costs involved in what they're doing; it's whether something like this is worth doing in the first place. Even if a customer doesn't want to overdye something himself, there are lots of companies in the US who will professionally overdye something for you. Starting price can be as little as $10.

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/find_a_custom_dyer.shtml

http://www.dyeitblack.com/

Maybe Lorcan is right and this is some special, Japanese process. I don't know, but from photos, all these black overdye jobs look the same.
post #9953 of 13955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


My point wasn't that there aren't costs involved in what they're doing; it's whether something like this is worth doing in the first place. Even if a customer doesn't want to overdye something himself, there are lots of companies in the US who will professionally overdye something for you. Starting price can be as little as $10.

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/find_a_custom_dyer.shtml

http://www.dyeitblack.com/

Maybe Lorcan is right and this is some special, Japanese process. I don't know, but from photos, all these black overdye jobs look the same.

I guess that I would disagree with you.  I mean, theoretically, you could get pretty much anything done, as long as you are willing to go through the time and trouble.  e.g. My next job is going to be an overdyed denim jacket with the heavy leather on the yoke and the arms replaced with navy leather arms with zipped cuffs, for example.  I think that the entire thing is priced out to $1200, including a brand new heavyweight jacket (probably Ironheart).  

 

Just because you can do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you is not a compelling argument that there isn't a place in the market for it.  Oak, for example, and Assembly NYC, used to do this all the time with upmarketed pieces, as did the original American Rag, way before either of those two existed.  

 

If the question then is "Is it worth it to send to Japan to get it Kyoto black dyed?" rather than having it done at a dye house in California, for example, since Kyoto black is doable at dye houses in California, or just using a super dark black dye, I suppose that the answer is that the "authenticity" of a process is worth something to the end customer.  I mean, otherwise, who really cares that something is called an "ancient madder" when it is merely a "modern" madder, or whatever nerds like us nerd out about?

post #9954 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

If the question then is "Is it worth it to send to Japan to get it Kyoto black dyed?" rather than having it done at a dye house in California, for example, since Kyoto black is doable at dye houses in California, or just using a super dark black dye, I suppose that the answer is that the "authenticity" of a process is worth something to the end customer.  I mean, otherwise, who really cares that something is called an "ancient madder" when it is merely a "modern" madder, or whatever nerds like us nerd out about?

If the two dye processes are the same and there's nothing actually special about this Japanese process, then I think you're confusing authenticity for hype.

If they're not the same and this is indeed something different than overdye jobs here (done with two dips, like they do), then OK ... I guess people are paying for "authenticity" (which, even as someone who cares about that stuff, is admittedly also pretty stupid).
post #9955 of 13955
They are presenting you a finished product. If you don't like it, you don't buy it. If you don't like the one that you sent off yourself, too late because you've already gone through all the trouble and expense and time. There is value in that.
post #9956 of 13955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


If the two dye processes are the same and there's nothing actually special about this Japanese process, then I think you're confusing authenticity for hype.

If they're not the same and this is indeed something different than overdye jobs here (done with two dips, like they do), then OK ... I guess people are paying for "authenticity" (which, even as someone who cares about that stuff, is admittedly also pretty stupid).

From what I know about the process, it's pretty darn similar.  

 

As for the difference between "authenticity" and "hype" - it's all marketing, which is very clearly worth something.  Otherwise, why is the country of origin so important to people?  it's the image of Italian artisans making beautiful shoes, sipping a doppio, or of a cool Japanese dude all in indigo clothing, in ye old fashioned dye house, or an English cobbler in the Northhampton countryside. that we are buying.  Otherwise, "Made in Italy" should be more accurately described as "made in Italy by Chinese people in a sweatshop that would look at home in Shenzen", "Made in the UK" would be "Sewed in Romania and lasted and soled in the UK", etc...  We should just make really good stuff in the state-of-the-art Chinese factories and be done with.

 

I find the simultaneous romanticization of process and the push to focus on the objective properties of the product to be perplexing.  

post #9957 of 13955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveat View Post

They are presenting you a finished product. If you don't like it, you don't buy it. If you don't like the one that you sent off yourself, too late because you've already gone through all the trouble and expense and time. There is value in that.

I think that we've moved beyond this to talk about whether it's worth it to send this stuff to Japan to be dyed.

post #9958 of 13955
Oh sorry, my mistake.
post #9959 of 13955
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caveat View Post

Oh sorry, my mistake.

lol.. jk.

 

But seriously, keep up.  We're moving at blazing speeds here.

post #9960 of 13955
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post

From what I know about the process, it's pretty darn similar.  

As for the difference between "authenticity" and "hype" - it's all marketing, which is very clearly worth something.  Otherwise, why is the country of origin so important to people?  it's the image of Italian artisans making beautiful shoes, sipping a doppio, or of a cool Japanese dude all in indigo clothing, in ye old fashioned dye house, or an English cobbler in the Northhampton countryside. that we are buying.  Otherwise, "Made in Italy" should be more accurately described as "made in Italy by Chinese people in a sweatshop that would look at home in Shenzen", "Made in the UK" would be "Sewed in Romania and lasted and soled in the UK", etc...  We should just make really good stuff in the state-of-the-art Chinese factories and be done with.

I find the simultaneous romanticization of process and the push to focus on the objective properties of the product to be perplexing.  

Wearing Romanian made shoes right now, concindentally.

There's something "special" about Italian tailoring and English shoemaking though. Whether companies are actually pulling the wool over consumers' eyes and having things made elsewhere is another story, but on face value -- buying things connected to a tradition and history makes an object more than its immediate self. It's the same reason why antique and art collectors will pay a premium for provenance. A 19th century pen might be just a 19th century pen, but if it's the pen Abraham Lincoln used to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, it suddenly becomes something more. Or, less grandiose, a painting may gain value depending on who were the previous owners.

For certain products, made-in-Italy and made-in-UK isn't just country-of-origin hype, it's about legitimate issues concerning provenance. Arguments about champagne and burgundy wine, blah blah blah.

I have absolutely no idea about this Japanese overdye process, but if you take the extreme -- that it's no different from double-dip overdye process here -- then this just becomes fetisization (maybe even bordering on Orientalism). If you're buying it literally because a Japanese person did it, rather than a white person, that gets into really weird socio-political issues.

Again, if it's indeed something different and it's not just some dude doing a Japanese version of RIT dye, then by all means -- buy away.
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