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Enzo Bonafe Handmade Shoes. - Page 12

post #166 of 429
I understand that, and that even though it is the same makeup and process the Goodyear can only be done by machine hence it's named after inventor, what would you call it if made the same but hand stitched and not machine.
post #167 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

I understand that, and that even though it is the same makeup and process the Goodyear can only be done by machine hence it's named after inventor, what would you call it if made the same but hand stitched and not machine.

Bastardy...

and a waste of time.

nod[1].gif
post #168 of 429
Agreed no sense in hand stitching when machine makes it a better, if I want hand stitched I go Norweigen.
post #169 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

I understand that, and that even though it is the same makeup and process the Goodyear can only be done by machine hence it's named after inventor, what would you call it if made the same but hand stitched and not machine.

It's called hand welted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

Agreed no sense in hand stitching when machine makes it a better, if I want hand stitched I go Norweigen.

I think some misunderstanding made DWF:s attitude towards Goodyear welting got lost here...
post #170 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

Agreed no sense in hand stitching when machine makes it a better, if I want hand stitched I go Norweigen.

Goodyear welting cannot begin to compare to hand welted direct to the insole.

Goodyear welting is fundamentally a cement construction--it's cheap, it's easy, and it's fast. When a maker uses gemming...which is critical for Goodyear...and stitches by hand, all the "benefits" of Goodyear are lost and nothing of value is gained. It is no longer cheap, easy or fast but it is still cement construction.

All things being equal, no machine can stitch...any kind of seam....as tight and as solid as a skilled maker can do by hand. Urban myth notwithstanding.

--
Edited by DWFII - 7/20/14 at 6:05am
post #171 of 429
ganahemy.jpgtygyse6a.jpg

Love mine. Great color and last. Haven't really broken them in yet.
post #172 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

I understand that, and that even though it is the same makeup and process the Goodyear can only be done by machine hence it's named after inventor, what would you call it if made the same but hand stitched and not machine.

The same process will not be used by hand. Where you're probably getting confused is that Goodyear welt is so popular with mid to high end shoes it has become a byword for any welted shoe. As DFW pointed out, it makes no sense to replicate the Goodyear construction by hand as the entire point is a fast and easy to replicate welted construction using adhesives to hold parts of the shoe together in place of laborious hand stitching. The benefits are that with Goodyear it's ecomomical to produce a serviceable welted shoe on a relatively large scale while the disadvantages are too contentious an issue for me to bring up here (go to any shoe thread in this forum to read up if you're interested; the debates are long and heated). A welted shoe made entirely by hand is stitched together through and through, foregoing the adhesives as the main binding of the shoe. This is usually called handwelted to distinguish it from the very popular Goodyear process though it predates Goodyear welting and is the original and true welted shoe construction.

To add to your confusion, because of the aforementioned popularity of the Goodyear construction, the name Goodyear has become a generalized name for all welted shoes which I mentioned before. Because of this, now there are manufacturers who refer to hand welting as "handmade Goodyear" or the like. This is to lean on the popularity and pervasiveness of Goodyear among quality shoe manufacturers who--as Goodyear is the best way to mass-produce quality shoes, but not the best way to produce shoes outright--use the name as a mark of quality and have done ever since the process was invented.

In short, Goodyear is now a byword or genericized trademark for all welted construction even though there is a fundamental construction difference between Goodyear welt and a traditional welted shoe.
post #173 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldWideWafflz View Post

To add to your confusion, because of the aforementioned popularity of the Goodyear construction, the name Goodyear has become a generalized name for all welted shoes which I mentioned before. Because of this, now there are manufacturers who refer to hand welting as "handmade Goodyear" or the like. This is to lean on the popularity and pervasiveness of Goodyear among quality shoe manufacturers who--as Goodyear is the best way to mass-produce quality shoes, but not the best way to produce shoes outright--use the name as a mark of quality and have done ever since the process was invented.

In short, Goodyear is now a byword or genericized trademark for all welted construction even though there is a fundamental construction difference between Goodyear welt and a traditional welted shoe.
It could be argued that Goodyear is not the best way to mass produce quality shoes. Blake or Blake-Rapid is a far better method if good quality insoles are used. GY is just the cheapest...barring pure cement construction....and even though cheap isn't always passed on to the customer, it will still always be cheap.

But the biggest reason GY is preferred over Blake is that it masquerades as HW.

The other point that needs to be made is that "handsewn GY" is a bastard term. It is not correct.. nor meaningful, no matter how one twists it around. It is misleading and it muddies any understanding of the way shoes are made and what objective quality really is. It's like touting a shoe as "faux leather." Those who use the term pander to the lowest common denominator. And often...as you implied...have an ulterior motive that, in one way or another, involves deliberately deceiving the customer.
post #174 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

It could be argued that Goodyear is not the best way to mass produce quality shoes. Blake or Blake-Rapid is a far better method if good quality insoles are used. GY is just the cheapest...barring pure cement construction....and even though cheap isn't always passed on to the customer, it will still always be cheap.

But the biggest reason GY is preferred over Blake is that it masquerades as HW.

The other point that needs to be made is that "handsewn GY" is a bastard term. It is not correct, nor meaningful no matter how one twists it around. It is misleading and it muddies any understanding of the way shoes are made and what objective quality really is is. Those who use the term pander to the lowest common denominator. And often...as you implied...have an ulterior motive that in some way involves deliberately deceiving the customer.

First point: I am totally willing to accept that Blake is a viable and potentially better construction for mass production. But this is a debate best handled by you and others with more experience than myself.

Second point is more or less what I was implying. I left it as an implication because I don't have your industry experience to really justify taking a position on the matter, so I left the use of Goodyear as simple 'marketing.' I'll leave you to make the case that it's 'misleading marketing.'
post #175 of 429
I do understand they us Goodyear because of popularity, I walked into a known maker in Florence last month and he has RTW and MTO he said he only makes Goodyear but his shop had no machinery only him and apprentice just a relative term I guess.
post #176 of 429
No, not because of "popularity." Rather because of expediency; intellectual laziness; deliberate misdirection.

I hate this trend. It doesn't clearly communicate anything of value. At some point in time, it becomes like political speech--a whole lot of words strung together inappropriately and conveying nothing barring bland reassurance...if that. It's inherently deceitful. When a word can mean this, or that, or the other thing, it doesn't have any meaning at all. A grunt is as good as "Goodyear."

The customer walks in the door and the shop owner says "Goodyear." The customer looks around in bewilderment. What does "Goodyear mean? " 99.9% of the time the customer...even long time members of this forum...cannot visualize what Goodyear looks like or how it impacts the quality of the shoes they're about to spend big money on.
post #177 of 429
My first Enzo Bonafe shoes. Great service from Skoak. And thanks @Rogerp for recommending I check out this maker. I am thrilled with the quality and depth of color.


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post #178 of 429
So I'll ask you and if anyone else chimes in so be it. If you had the choice of Goodyear or a hand welted shoe lets say by Enzo Bonafe, for the same price no up charge. What would you choose. To some may seem like a trick question but to those who no the difference it should be easy.
post #179 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reero View Post

So I'll ask you and if anyone else chimes in so be it. If you had the choice of Goodyear or a hand welted shoe lets say by Enzo Bonafe, for the same price no up charge. What would you choose. To some may seem like a trick question but to those who no the difference it should be easy.

Man just let go, all right. This topic has been bitched about enough times to make a person's head explode.

If you want to discuss the shoe construction please go to the dedicated thread for that topic.
post #180 of 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by partyof6 View Post

My first Enzo Bonafe shoes. Great service from Skoak. And thanks @Rogerp for recommending I check out this maker. I am thrilled with the quality and depth of color.





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I'm happy that you'r e happy - and thanks for contributing some content other than the usual suspects beating their usual drums.

Those are beauties indeed.
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