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Working for ethics or money? - Page 2

post #16 of 27
LA Guy, sometimes the views expressed here are so cynical, fatalist, and depressing that I have to leave for a while until I feel like it may be safe to return. Beyond that, I've been away on vacation in Mexico. PS - I've never read Ayn Rand.
post #17 of 27
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I'm sure some will find fault with such market-based solutions, but they are certainly more creative and innovative than the increasingly knee-jerk reaction of asking some government to address our problems for us. With a little innovation in the marketplace, we can reduce our taxes and do it better ourselves.
Vero, my question is: what would happen to employees fired by a company that chose not to buy the private company insurance? Of course you could make a law forcing every company to buy the insurance, but isn't that exactly the same thing as the involuntary tax ad extraneousness? For the company to pay for the insurance that they are forced to buy, they would have to reduce their workers' wages (and probably throw in some extra check trimming for extra cash's sake), which has the same affect on everyone's pay stub in the end. Not forcing companies to buy the insurance would result in many companies (i.e. Wal Mart) opting out of it and leaving their fired employees in the mud?
post #18 of 27
Well, if an employee is fired for cause, the policy probably wouldn't cover them anyway because I doubt the insurance company would want to pay the beneficiary unemployment payments if it was their own fault for becoming unemployed. If they were laid off as part of a downsizing and the employer did not provide the unemployment insurance as a benefit, then one would have been wise to buy a personal unemployment policy, just like many of us buy renters insurance or car insurance or life insurance just in case unplanned events in life occur -- and they WILL occur, so we cover ourselves with insurance. Most employers provide benefits like retirement, health, disability, and life so that they can remain competitive in the labor market. A salary or commission alone isn't enough to attract good employees to your company. You have to offer something more. The unemployment insurance could be something else they offer. As a prospective employee, it's up to you if you want to work for a company that does or does not offer the benefits as part of the compensation being offered to you. I don't claim to have this all figured out, I'm just encouraging us all to "think outside the box" as opposed to taking the easy way out and asking our political representatives to box us all in with more government regulation and taxes. They only increase spending and increase taxes because "We the People" keep asking them to do more and more for us. I think we would all be better off looking for solutions to our problems amongst ourselves, for profit or not for profit -- whatever works.
post #19 of 27
Hmmm. Maybe I'm an objectivist and I don't even know it.
post #20 of 27
Vero, Re. your libertarian tendencies and dislike for academics, government, and other "parasitic" classes. You would do well to read Ayn Rand's Atlas shrugged, which your views are pretty much codified in, and then read a good critique of it. There are some fundamental problems with objectivism (essentially what you are advocating) that have been articulated very well, and by more convincing writers than myself. Better yet, just read "Guns, Germs, and Steel", a very well written piece of pop anthropology/sociology by Jared Diamond. Although not the main point of his treatise, he does point out that advanced civilizations and technology would not, could not, and did not develop in societies that did not have the food surpluses needed to sustain non-productive classes specialist classes, which included chiefs or kings, and scholars.
post #21 of 27
chiefs, kings, and scholars are all potentially 'productive'. IRS agents, on the other hand...
post #22 of 27
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Just as an example, I am not sure how holistically ideological a job that "saves the world is" if you also have 4 kids and you cannot afford to pay for their education, clothes, shelter, etc.  Same goes for a high paying job that takes up so much of your time that you neglect your family and friends altogether. In my sort-of-second year of law school I have already faced some of these decisions and I can tell you that based on those experiences I will abstain from this poll.
I have faced these issues as well. Spent my first few years out of law school working for a big NYC firm. Making lots of money, but didn't have any time with my family. I was lucky enough to find a job that provides me with a better balance of work/family etc. that I enjoy. I will tell you a funny (at least to me) story that happened to me my first year as an attorney. My first year out of law school, I attended a firm party at the home of one of the senior partners of the firm. His house was a huge mansion in Greenwich, CT. Well over 10,000 square feet, a big, beautiful manicured lawn, a boat slip, pool, and a beautiful view of the ocean. One of the other senior partners called all of us first year associates around him. He said: "You see Bill's house? It's pretty amazing, isn't it." (appreciative nods from all of us first years) "It would be pretty cool to be able to afford a house like this someday, wouldn't it?" (more affirmative nods from the first year associates) "Well," he continued, "I'm going to tell you a secret about our law firm." "If you work really really hard, and I mean REALLY hard, that means weekends, holidays, birthdays, and late into the night . . . and you bill thousands of hours, and generate new business for our firm . . . and you do that year after year. . . . then Bill will be able to build another house, just like this one, down in Florida." More than a grain of truth in this joke.
post #23 of 27
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My first year out of law school, I attended a firm party at the home of one of the senior partners of the firm.  His house was a huge mansion in Greenwich, CT.  Well over 10,000 square feet, a big, beautiful manicured lawn, a boat slip, pool, and a beautiful view of the ocean.   One of the other senior partners called all of us first year associates around him.  He said: "You see Bill's house?  It's pretty amazing, isn't it."  (appreciative nods from all of us first years)  "It would be pretty cool to be able to afford a house like this someday, wouldn't it?"   (more affirmative nods from the first year associates)  "Well," he continued, "I'm going to tell you a secret about our law firm."  "If you work really really hard, and I mean REALLY hard, that means weekends, holidays, birthdays, and late into the night . . . and you bill thousands of hours, and generate new business for our firm . . . and you do that year after year. . . .    then Bill will be able to build another house, just like this one, down in Florida." More than a grain of truth in this joke.
A boat docked in a tiny Mexican village. An American tourist complimented the Mexican fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. "Not very long," answered the Mexican. "Well, then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the American. The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meet his needs and those of his family. The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife.? In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs... I have a full life." The American interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you. You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and maybe even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angeles, or even New York City. From there you can direct your huge enterprise." "How long would that take?" asked the Mexican. "Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American. "And after that?" "Afterwards?? That's when it gets really interesting," answered American, laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions." "Millions?? Really?? And after that?" "After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your children, catch a few fish, take siestas with your wife, and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends."
post #24 of 27
Jon: Great story- was going to post it myself but I couldn't remember it. Made the same point I was trying to with my rant on the class system. But more gently done. Kudos.
post #25 of 27
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...Made the same point I was trying to with my rant on the class system. But more gently done. Kudos.
Yeah, but where is the fun in that? And lay off my word Kudos, willya? JJF
post #26 of 27
Jon, I loved it. Great post.
post #27 of 27
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I am being completely serious in recommending the book Atlas Shrugged to you Vero.  It is an excellent book, actually, probably one of the first serious philosphical/social commentary type books I read growing up.  I guarantee that you would enjoy it, although there is a bit of atheist ideology near the end of the book that could have been cut out. I have yet to read The Fountainhead myself, but it is on my list of things to do. And I bet you thought I was just a leftist wacko???
Thanks for the recommendation. I remember trying to read some of her works back in college when I was a deep thinker and all that, but I could not seem to get into her storylines. I'm not a big fiction fan anyway. Personally, I like Robert J. Ringer, a cuddly libertarian if there ever was one. He published several books during the 1970's and 1980's on "rational living" and living in reality (as opposed to fantasyland). Some titles include: "Winning Through Intimidation", "Looking Out For #1", "Million Dollar Habits", "Getting What You Want, The 7 Principles of Rational Living". I highly recommend the latter two to those who may be interested in such crazy things as living in reality. Works for me.
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