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Clothes and Perception

Claghorn

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So there was a brief discussion about why I dislike wearing suits. The long short of it is, I had to wear suits for a while due to circumstances which I disliked, so I get no pleasure from the wearing of a suit itself. Coupled with this, I spent six years in a society where people read a lot into how you appear and how you choose to present yourself. Dressing as I dress, I am clearly eccentric. But for a few reasons, I didn't want to be perceived as a) someone who didn't have a choice in what he wore or b) someone who is wearing suits to signal or play at importance (which bugs me as in Korea, I had been questioned on this point several times...which is damned vexing when you're sitting there, having a beer, mulling over the fact that you aren't even allowed to wear a blue shirt).

So now, if I have to, I'll wear suits, and I don't mind, because I have to. But if I don't have to, I do mind, and that's that. (and of course, I'll happily wear suits that aren't very city).

Now, this brought up several interesting points, some of which I think are settled (though others might disagree) while others are fertile ground for conversation.

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I do think that people recognize the difference in formality between a standard city suit and a odd jacket or blazer rig. They might not be able to explain it--they might even name both a suit--but I'd bet they'd point to the suit 19 times out of 20.

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Should people care how clothes cause them to be perceived? Well, that's personal preference, and I think there are probably pros and cons to both sides. Like in most things, there is probably an optimum range representing a balance between the two. But I don't think it would be wise to operate at either extreme. Don't care too much. Don't care too little. Provided a level of professional awareness, I'd argue it's the happier path to care too little.

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And do people judge others by what they wear? And how much to they read into what other people wear? And by what standard do they do this?

Well, to say that everyone does is probably as foolish as saying that nobody does. Culture matters. As does society. The circumstances matter. The wearer matters. The observer matters.




@in stitches
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clotheshorse69

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Here we go, into another circular debate, but I'll bite.

Know three things: appropriateness, context and mood of the wearer. On the other hand, if you don't mind being 'that guy', then keep doing what you're doing.

Honestly, on 'main street', U.S.A., I don't think people recognize the difference between a suit and sport coat/pants. For that matter, loafers are the same thing as oxfords to most. All they see is padded shoulders, lapels, leather foot wraps and perhaps a tie, and think 'suit'. I can't say what it'd be like in Korea, but I imagine you are dealing with similar norms there. If there are any universals, I believe they're that people pay just as much attention to demeanor and eye contact. Also, being born attractive does wonders, heh.
 
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heldentenor

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People do perceive differences in formality, and I think those differences give rise to assumptions about why the wearer has dressed the way he or she has done. I care about those assumptions when they cohere with my own, and I take account of them when I think them valid. My perception of the validity of those assumptions, in turn, depends heavily on context.

So how does that shape how we dress? I'll leave aside any normative "should" statements, because our motivations differ. But I do think point of origin matters. I care about dressing well, but choose my wardrobe my idiosyncratically, around aesthetic and emotional pleasure. Coherence with environment is part of that pleasure. To stand out too greatly, and with associations that do not fit that environment, would make me less happy with how I dress--even if I were wearing a perfectly crafted bespoke navy suit.

Contrast this to Stitchy, for example, who has openly proclaimed his desire to dress as well as possible, by which I take it he means that coherence of fit trumps variety or innate personal pleasure for him each and every time.
(@in stitches , sorry if I'm mischaracterizing you--please correct me if I am).

For Stitchy, the perfect suit worn in the perfect ensemble is its own aesthetic achievement, circumstances (more or less) be damned. I love this and envy it a bit; my favorite photo of his was him shooting a jump shot in a Formosa suit. But it's not me, at least not yet.

[Clags: I'll leave it to you to tell us, if you will, how you engage this question, though I suspect it's very much a hybrid of these two, shading heavily toward Stitchy.]

My great sartorial love is the sport coat, and I try to build tasteful ensembles around my sportcoats every day I set foot on campus and most days when I don't. I believe that my enjoyment of a great degree of variety of patterns, colors, and fabrics in sport coats fits my professional environment well, since a jacket and tie denotes respect for my students, colleagues, and the institutional setting, while the jacket's individual characteristics showcase intentional choice and interpretive preference. If a colleague or student finds me overdressed as some do, which they express with the incredulous query "why are you wearing a suit?", I simply do not care. When a colleague insinuates that I must be dressing to impress someone or to compensate for my junior status in age and academic rank, I simply do not care. Their perception of the relationship between environment and sartorial choice doesn't match my own, and I value my own perception enough to follow it.

I love beautifully fitting city suits, but I own exactly two, and seldom wear them. Why I don't wear suits (or, for that matter, navy blazers very often) is more complex than why I do wear sport coats. It's not that I don't like them; it's that they aren't me, they aren't my environment, and they connote (for most people, most of the time) a different set of circumstances, values, and abilities than those I possess. I cannot sort out the relative influence of those three factors; I suspect more of it is due to factor #2 (environment) than I'd like to admit.

Clags, I hope I didn't suck the life out of your thread here.
 
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Claghorn

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Honestly, on 'main street', U.S.A., I don't think people recognize the difference between a suit and sport coat/pants. For that matter, loafers are the same thing as oxfords to most. All they see is padded shoulders, lapels, leather foot wraps and perhaps a tie, and think 'suit'. I can't say what it'd be like in Korea, but I imagine you are dealing with similar norms there.
What do you mean by recognize? If you mean that they'd classify sport coat and trousers as a suit, then yes, many would. But if you mean they would be unable to draw any sort of distinction, regardless of their ability to put it into words, I don't think that's the case. I think they'd be able to say a tweed suit is less formal than a gray worsted wool suit. And I think they'd be able to say an odd jacket and trousers is less formal than a gray worsted wool suit. This is something that the media (film) will have reinforced continually.

As far as Korea...very, very different norms there.

[Clags: I'll leave it to you to tell us, if you will, how you engage this question, though I suspect it's very much a hybrid of these two, shading heavily toward Stitchy.]
I definitely skew very towards Stitchy as I don't care much about the environment. I just have a hang up about the two possible signals being sent mentioned in the OP.

Someone also mentioned in WAYWRN that given the cut, styling, detail and coherence that many of us have adopted and achieve, most people are able to recognize many of us as hobbyists. I don't know if that's the case, but I certainly hope that's true. It's nice being able to share you hobby with people.
 

in stitches

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Placeholder. On mobile. Will get on this when I have time to sit and type out a reply.
 

Academic2

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“Culture matters. As does society. The circumstances matter. The wearer matters. The observer matters.” — Claghorn

Many thanks to Claghorn for starting this thread. I hope it becomes a permanent fixture on SF. It should, because there is always a social dimension to dress. Always.

The topic is thus relevant in some measure to many other threads on SF, and it’s good to have a place where its discussion is the central focus. It might be useful to think of this as the equivalent of a committee charged with investigating a particular subject of mutual interest, with the goal of clarifying our thinking about it, rather than as a place where debates will determinately settle particular questions.

There are so many complex and interesting aspects of the social dimension of dress that I don’t want to appear to prioritize one over the others by bringing it up, so let me say a word on a topic which has already been broached, the notion of ‘appropriateness’.

We’ve all noted the phenomenon of a new or newish forum member asking a question which takes the form “what is appropriate dress for an occasion of type X.” The question often (though not invariably) arises when the questioner is about to encounter a situation new to them, such as a new job. The fact that so many young people ask the question tells us that the notion of appropriateness is alive and well across the generations.

There’s a phenomenon on SF that I’ve observed more times than I can count. A new member starts a thread to ask a question like “I’m starting a new office job next week, and I’m not sure what I should wear.” That’s not a question that can be answered in its current form, yet people, motivated no doubt by a perfectly laudable desire to help the poster, immediately start providing what they think are answers. The proper—in the sense of most useful— response would be to prompt the questioner for more information, with the goal of refining the question to the point where informed advice can be offered. Will you be a partner in a Wall Street investment bank? A receptionist at an abattoir? Both are office jobs, after all. Those who have followed the history of the GNAT thread will have witnessed the way that thread has, over time, self-refined the questions to which it responds in the hope of improving the answers.

I’ve got to run right now, but I’ll close by mentioning two previous threads which touched upon particular cases of the social perception of dress: Claghorn’s thread on menswear for women and Holdfast’s thread on the British ‘Wide Boy’ style. Both are great discussions.

Cheers,

Ac
 

David Reeves

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A bum once swore at a guy in the street while I walked past him here in Brooklyn, he looked at me, then looked down at his shoes before looking up and sheepishly said "suh, suh, sorry sir". Thats what a David Reeves three piece in H lesser does for you.
 
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An Acute Style

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As a high school teacher, I agree with @heldentenor in almost all respects. I've had similar occurrences as him in my institution and feel the say way he does about suits and sport coats.

This may be off topic, but it brings up a recurring incident in my life. A few teachers at my job tell me that I look nice and then immediately follow this up with how they always look terrible or should start dressing better. That is, my attempt/success at looking nice is a constant reminder of their inability/reluctance to do the same. The reasons for them not dressing up could be many. They many not want to, can't afford it, don't have the time to, or are afraid to try. I've always found this reaction interesting. It surely isn't my desire to produce these feelings in people by trying to look my best, but it is an unfortunate side effect.
 

greger

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The small play at the theater where every actor plays several parts. The clothes change for every part. That's my opinion.
 

patrickBOOTH

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I have some stuff to say about this, but I have a feeling I am going to be pulled away from the computer, so I guess, yeah I'm commenting to subscribe to this thread.
 

330CK

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And do people judge others by what they wear? And how much to they read into what other people wear? And by what standard do they do this?

The first day of marching band rehearsal freshman year of high school I was asked by a few fellow students if I was really excited about the first day because I was "dressed up." I was wearing a polo shirt and boardshorts.

Edit: now thinking about it, it was a Polo brand polo shirt. I think the brand influenced the perceived formality as well.
 
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in stitches

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There are probably too many layers to even address on this topic, and it would be very easy to go on for pages. Ill do my best to stick to a few layers, but once I start typing there is really no way to know where it will lead, so consider yourselves warned, my fellow readers.

First off, perception is reality. Or at least a reality, and there is no avoiding it. Whatever way you decide to dress will by nature affect the perception of how you are viewed, no different than how you act. The greater question, for me anyways, is what, if any, are the consequences.

Depending on what you do, where you work, what official or unofficial rules may exist, and even what geographical location you find yourself in, there can be any number of consequences as a direct result of attire. The consequences could range from social exile, so to speak, to inability to advance in the workplace, to getting fired, to being uncomfortable or unnerved, and everywhere in-between.

While I have always been an advocate of wearing what makes you happy, I have also been an advocate for being aware of the consequences of your actions. As long as you know what the cause and effect will be, then at that point you get to knowingly choose what you want to do.

As such, a person may work for a company developing skateboard games for X-box. Im going to hazard a guess that you probably have exposed brick in your work space, and probably a lot of hipsters, and most likely jeans and tee shirts are the norm. Now, if you decide to wear a jacket and tie to work, its may be unlikely that you will get fired, but you probably wont find yourself the most popular, or included, guy at work. On the other end of the spectrum, you may work for a very conservative law firm or banking institution, and perhaps wearing light gray pants, a gunclub SC, brown suede shoes, a light blue shirt and sweet PS and neat print tie could get you sent home, and maybe fired if you did it twice. Then again you may work in a professional environment where people are expected to look nice, but if you look "too nice" or "too formal" you are perceived as dressing beyond your station, and this may likely affect promotions, what assignments you get, who wants to work with you, and so on, all depending on how strong a consequence is a result of that perception, and how much your co-workers and bosses care about these things. Or, you may be working or living in a place where you can dress however you damn well please and there will not be shred of consequence because you are in a place where this kind of perception is wholly unconsidered.

Who knows. The point is, that there can be real consequences to the clothes you choose to wear, and to pretend there are not is foolish.

Another layer is simply how comfortable you feel in certain types of attire based on your surroundings, and even if there may be no perception based consequences to what you are wearing, perhaps you simply feel uncomfortable in your own skin presenting yourself in a certain way in a certain environment. So maybe you love wearing a suit and tie, and maybe where you are allows you to wear that 100%, but then again, maybe because you know that you will be the only person dressed that way, it makes you uncomfortable. Even if there are no perception based consequences, or maybe you just get questioning looks, but no one really cares, all the same, if it leaves you looking over your shoulder, or wondering how you are being perceived, that is its own reality. Once again, to pretend that its not real is also foolish. If it makes you unhappy or uneasy to wear something because of where you are, then that is a perception based reality, its your reality, not that of others, but its still a reality. Some people feel a uneasy looking different, some dont. There is no right or wrong, its just a matter of personality.

As long as you are acutely aware of all the various possible perceptions and realities, and potential consequences, at that point its up to each and every individual to decide how they want to present themselves. You may say, well, I know that if I wear X that will effectively create the following consequences, but, Im okay with that, and its more important for me to be able to be happy and comfortable in my mode of attire than whatever consequences may follow. Or you may say, nope, I dont want that to happen to me simply because of what I am wearing, Ill find something else that I like well enough, and Ill find another opportunity to wear the things that I really want to, but dont feel okay wearing in said circumstance.

The choice is yours, and yours alone, and if you dont want to wear something for fear of some consequence, be it large or small, or because wearing something makes you feel a certain way that you dont want to feel, or if wearing something makes you feel that you may be being perceived in a certain way that you would rather not, then by all means, adjust what you wear. Why wouldnt you? On the other hand, if you dont care, or if the internal reward for dressing how you want is greater to you than whatever consequence or perception my be associated with it, then thats your choice too.

TL;RD, For me its about finding the sweet spot of wearing what you want to wear, and being completely aware of what effect that may have on you, and the deciding, based on all the information you have at hand, how you want to look.
 

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in stitches

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Your loss!
 

jedwards

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Love the comments and discussion so far.
Perception is definitely reality as Stitches says above. I have always found it largely positive when people perceive you to dress well.
But I've always tended towards smart clothes, rather than the most fashionable clothes. I try to dress in context though, so I would not be one of those people forcing a 3 piece suit into a flip flop and shorts work environment, as much as I like 3 piece suits.

For whatever reason, people always seem to perceive you as having self-worth and confidence if you dress smartly. I suppose you are telling the world, "I care enough about myself to make an effort in how I look and present myself in the best light possible". Same for the gym and being in decent shape I believe too. It takes discipline to be in good shape, and it takes discipline to decide to dress nicely on a regular basis- at least initially anyway.

Somewhere along the way in their twenties, a lot of guys lose confidence in their appearance and style and so start to tell themselves "it doesn't matter, because the guy I sit next to is scruff anyway" - maybe at that point they're also in a long term relationship, so they stop caring for that and various other reasons. When they see that there are people who still present themselves confidently and dressed well contextually, it can often jolt people's own assumptions about themselves and what is 'normal': "Maybe I should make more of an effort too" and quite often you can end up giving less confident guys 'permission' to step out of their own comfort zone: "if he can, I can" kinda thing.

Of course, all of the above is assuming you are doing this with good grace and not presenting yourself as better than other people just because you happen to have 'better' clothes. If you are doing this for negative or insecure reasons, that will also come across in your intentions. I hope I come across as someone who just happens to love nice clothes, that is really my only motive. And as I own my own business, thank God I have none of the politics of dressing well that some encounter.

One thing I want to throw into the mix - have you guys ever encountered this comment, along the lines of:

"I'd love to dress like you/wear that but I don't think I could pull it off"

To me that comment always shows that a lot of guys WOULD like to dress nicer, but they just don't have the confidence for whatever reason. Therefore they perceive YOU as confident.
 

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