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The Bespoke Shoes Thread - Page 27

post #391 of 625
Lobb terminologies are a little out of step with everyone else, but over there anything with an apron is a Norwegian - Norwegian slipper, Norwegian navy cut/derby, Norwegian monk etc. They don't call them aprons either, they're all lakes which makes a bit of sense when you think of Norway's main geographical feature. You might very rarely call a laid-on-lake an apron, because an apron is something you put on top of something else.

A split toe was something done on some styles out of necessity historically, so didn't affect the terminology. Now it's just a feature than can be specified.
post #392 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Lobb terminologies are a little out of step with everyone else, but over there anything with an apron is a Norwegian - Norwegian slipper, Norwegian navy cut/derby, Norwegian monk etc. They don't call them aprons either, they're all lakes which makes a bit of sense when you think of Norway's main geographical feature. You might very rarely call a laid-on-lake an apron, because an apron is something you put on top of something else.

A split toe was something done on some styles out of necessity historically, so didn't affect the terminology. Now it's just a feature than can be specified.

Thanks, Nicholas! That's helpful

Curious to know what was the historical necessity for split toes. Do you happen to know?
post #393 of 625
If you want to make a whole cut Derby for whatever reason - usually to eliminate seams at the waist for waterproofing - then you've got a problem when it comes to cutting the pattern. These pictures should make it easy to see why:



Pretend the split isn't there for a second, and this pattern is all one piece. You'd need a pretty rare breed of calf with a hide that overlaps like that on the facings. The solution is to cut the toe and stitch two bits together.



Then you've got the tongue which offers other problems on styles without a lake



You get around that by attaching extra leather to extend the facings, but that's a story for another time.

Generally a derby is more waterproof than an Oxford, because the tongue that lays under the facings is an extension of the vamp and water can't get inside the shoe as easily as on an Oxford. When the shoemakers of the past wanted to make it more waterproof and remove seams at the shoe/welt junction, they had to get creative and put them on top of the shoe - creating the lake/apron design.

This waterproof element was desirable for work shoes worn outdoors, no one wants their labourers taking time off for trench foot. The canal and railway workers at the time were referred to as "navigational engineers", or "navvies" informally, hence the Lobb term "navvy cut". The perfect fashion statement for the man casually digging 100 mile long trenches across the spine of the country to be filled with water later.
post #394 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

If you want to make a whole cut Derby for whatever reason - usually to eliminate seams at the waist for waterproofing - then you've got a problem when it comes to cutting the pattern. These pictures should make it easy to see why:



Pretend the split isn't there for a second, and this pattern is all one piece. You'd need a pretty rare breed of calf with a hide that overlaps like that on the facings. The solution is to cut the toe and stitch two bits together.



Then you've got the tongue which offers other problems on styles without a lake



You get around that by attaching extra leather to extend the facings, but that's a story for another time.

Generally a derby is more waterproof than an Oxford, because the tongue that lays under the facings is an extension of the vamp and water can't get inside the shoe as easily as on an Oxford. When the shoemakers of the past wanted to make it more waterproof and remove seams at the shoe/welt junction, they had to get creative and put them on top of the shoe - creating the lake/apron design.

This waterproof element was desirable for work shoes worn outdoors, no one wants their labourers taking time off for trench foot. The canal and railway workers at the time were referred to as "navigational engineers", or "navvies" informally, hence the Lobb term "navvy cut". The perfect fashion statement for the man casually digging 100 mile long trenches across the spine of the country to be filled with water later.

Very informative post as always!
post #395 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

If you want to make a whole cut Derby for whatever reason - usually to eliminate seams at the waist for waterproofing - then you've got a problem when it comes to cutting the pattern. These pictures should make it easy to see why: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Pretend the split isn't there for a second, and this pattern is all one piece. You'd need a pretty rare breed of calf with a hide that overlaps like that on the facings. The solution is to cut the toe and stitch two bits together.



Then you've got the tongue which offers other problems on styles without a lake



You get around that by attaching extra leather to extend the facings, but that's a story for another time.

Generally a derby is more waterproof than an Oxford, because the tongue that lays under the facings is an extension of the vamp and water can't get inside the shoe as easily as on an Oxford. When the shoemakers of the past wanted to make it more waterproof and remove seams at the shoe/welt junction, they had to get creative and put them on top of the shoe - creating the lake/apron design.

This waterproof element was desirable for work shoes worn outdoors, no one wants their labourers taking time off for trench foot. The canal and railway workers at the time were referred to as "navigational engineers", or "navvies" informally, hence the Lobb term "navvy cut". The perfect fashion statement for the man casually digging 100 mile long trenches across the spine of the country to be filled with water later.

That was really interesting, Nicholas. Big thanks for taking the time to explain!
post #396 of 625
Wow. I had long ben interested about the origin of the term "navvy cut". I am so glad you wrote that.
post #397 of 625

I just thought that I'd post my new MTO shoes that I had made by GG on an extra narrow last that they have made for me. I love them and here are some pictures:

 

Inside with artificial light:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Picture from Skoaktiebolaget of the standard width version in their lighting:

 


Here are a few more pictures in natural lighting:

 

 

 

post #398 of 625
Thread Starter 
These came out great. I can see why you need a custom last!
post #399 of 625

these are the most realistic photos of them IRL

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mw313 View Post

 

Inside with artificial light:

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

post #400 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrybrowne View Post

These came out great. I can see why you need a custom last!


thanks!!! 

 

Yes the special ordering on a last like this helps a lot with my narrow feet!

post #401 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoGent View Post
 


i agree

post #402 of 625

Since I spoke to you last, I'm still waiting to hear back about that pair of JL Paris shoes I posted pictures of. In the mean time, a pair of JL St. James Bespoke shoes that I ordered have come in. They were originally made for someone else who died before ever even getting to try them on, so I was offered a great deal because the man was around the same size as me. 

 

These shoes are a tad long (about 0.5 or so size) but fit well from the heel to ball length, which is much more important. The width is a little wide for me in overall volume but the actual "width" is quite close. I may try to get a full sock liner added or something, and eventually will probably have the last modified to take some of the volume off of it. 

 

Here are some pictures so what do you guys think? They are a very dark navy blue, just in case you guys were wondering:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also have included a few pictures with me wearing them to show you the fit:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here are two pictures with me lifting my heel to cause some temporary creasing, to give a better idea of fit. I think that the distance of the creases below aren't in a bad place, because they are on the vamp after the facings, but before the toe. They do seem to show that there is too much volume at the vamp which is causing the deeper creasing, but I expected this to still have a bit too much volume over that area for me and that is the area that I would like to be able to reduce by having the last modified as well as possibly adding a sock liner for a temporary fix. 

 

 

 

 

Any thoughts on the look, the fit, and any possible direct shoe adjustments as well as last adjustments?

post #403 of 625
I guess there is indeed to much volume on the vamp and the problem I see is that by using it that way, you will badly crease them as cap less oxfords tend to crease more anyway on the vamp. I do not think a sock liner will do much and potential will adversely impact the instep/v gap
post #404 of 625
I would try a front insole padding in addition to a sock liner.
post #405 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I would try a front insole padding in addition to a sock liner.


that is what i was thinking too but i have never seen a front insole padding before. I was thinking of using something like a tongue pad but placed at the front insole such as a metatarsal pad that I use in orthotics at times. 

 

Thoughts?

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